Sneak Peek At Ghosts of Saltmarsh Maps

Here's a sneak peek at some of the maps to be found in the upcoming D&D Ghosts of Saltmarsh, courtesy of WotC's Twitch stream.

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And Dyson Logos, one of the cartographers for the book, has shared some of his work which will be appearing!

 

[Rob Twohy]

Are you [MENTION=6928534]Rob Twohy[/MENTION] of DM's Guild? I've bought some of your stuff. Just let me say that I, for one, appreciate the great map artwork.

I am THAT Rob Twohy yes, and THANX for your support. I appreciate that.

 

[Rob Twohy]

I get some of your point - I looked at FG and DnDBeyond and both wanted me to pay an additional $30ish for PHB content (even though I had a hard copy PHB). I know there is work in conversions, but one hopes it isn't the same cost as all of the development and creativity in the original product. If they wanted $10, I would not have blinked. As it is, they got 0$ from me because I cannot afford to commit $100 every time a new book comes up (and that's $100 US, about $130 CAD).

I've used MapTool and I had licenses for Grip iPC and another VTT I paid for (forget the name now - but I bought 4 licenses). One of the problems I've encountered is they (not sure if FG is the same) only support some games or some content of those games and the ability to add the full fledged support for new content is strictly something the original developers can provide and they are either way slow or just don't. So buying the paper books (or a PDF thereof) still means you've got content the VTTs don't support.

I write code for a living. I know several ways one could make much more open data models and interfaces/APIs to let users add content to the software almost as easily as they could to the PnP game. But none of the developers for VTTs that want hefty fees tend to bother. And I am not able to afford FG monthly subscription any more than I can justify a monthly subscription to MS Office when an 8 year old version I own works for 100% of my needs.

I have no issues with the game books including colour maps. I never use maps out of books directly because they aren't miniature sized. They should, by now, be releasing B&W and colour digital maps (and other game aids from products) when you buy the digital product. (And if you do it smart, with the right tools, you can probably easily reskin a floorplan from fancy to simple B&W)

Ideally:
- Print or POD version
- PDF version with digital versions of all reference materials (B&W or easily printable and colourful for VTTs)
- VTT packages with tokens and full VTT integration data

If WotC was smart, they'd partner with VTT vendors so that you could buy these parts individually but if you bought more than one of the three categories, a discount would be applied (the author's input has already been remunerated).

I like VTTs for distance gaming and I like B&W or easily printable for tabletop gaming. The books to me could be broken into an easily printable reference booklet and the larger 'arty' hardcover or softcover.

One driver is artists like to be arty. And module designers want to try out layout and module design experiments. Creative people want to be creative. That instinct often overwhelms the understanding that end users need to be able to use the product.

I'm a D&D person through and through, as a matter of fact, I have never played even 5 minutes of Pathfinder EVER. Having said that, I do know that if you buy a Paizo product PDF, you get that price directly off the Fantasy Grounds VTT price of the same module. It's like getting the PDF for FREE. WotC has no such deal with any of the VTTs. They don't even have (for public sale) any PDFs of their products for the current edition unless you count Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron which they have in PDF form (for now) at DMs Guild. As a side note, I was the one who converted that PDF to the Fantasy Grounds format for SmiteWorks. I also did The Laboratory of Kwalish for them. But yes, it would be AWESOME if WotC offered any kind of discount for buying the same material in more than one format. Not sure why they don't. I do know that D&D is more popular than ever BY AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE now, and they don't NEED to offer any discounts. It would be nice, but I'm sure they're fine with their current level of sales?

 

[Hussar]

I agree. For handouts, the Dyson maps are perfect. Especially if you don't want to take the time to copy them by hand. Much easier on the printer cartridges compared to the full color Schley maps. I am ignorant on what you mean by "colorized" Dyson map, though.

People have taken the Dyson maps and colorized them:

https://imgur.com/a/hPqW9JQ

For examples.

 

[Tom B1]

I do know that D&D is more popular than ever BY AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE now, and they don't NEED to offer any discounts. It would be nice, but I'm sure they're fine with their current level of sales?

My thinking goes like this: Assuming there are a fair number of folks like me with a budget, who are frustrated by paying multiple times for the same (or only slightly different) content (like paying the same for a PDF and a hardcover...) or who are priced out of the market because of the cost of integration on the useful platforms.... that's a pool of money they COULD be capturing if they had a different strategy.

TSR eventually foundered and ended up on the rocks because they made some mistakes in assessing their market. I don't think WotC is immune. Mind you, I think their corporate policy may have some input from their ownership.

I'd like to second the comment on the nice work you do at DMsGuild, Rob. I don't lack an appreciation for beauty. I just find it distracts from function many times and I'll take utility over aesthetics every time. (given my already stipulated parameters of use).

 

[Tom B1]

I kind of like Dyson's spartan style. Then again, my daughter loves bright neon colours, glitter, and lots of what to me feels like overwhelming visual clutter, so I tend almost uniformly to look for the more minimalist and spartan in terms of aesthetics of design. (Doubly so in my work on UIs).

I wish some of the tech was used more effectively to make the digital platforms more easily user-extensible. That's still a lack in my books. But that's another discussion. ;0)

 

[WaterRabbit]

Most people don't realize that it takes about 400-600 hours of work to convert the average WotC book into Fantasy Grounds format. Also, there is usually EXTRA stuff, like automated table and encounter makers, etc. Like fo rexample the Dungeon Master's Guide has an Item forge where you can combine (magic) items to make new items.

Also, SmiteWorks (makers of FG) charges only about half the cover price of the book for the VTT version (which is a GREAT DEAL) and most of that money goes to WotC for the license anyway.

400-600 hours seems excessive to me. I converted the original U1 into Roll20, including drawing my own outdoor contour map (which isn't included in the adventure). By converted I mean created from scratch. I drew all of the maps including added the dynamic lighting elements.

That also includes replacing all of the monsters with 5e versions (I substituted Hobgoblins because they fit an ongoing arc IMC). That means creating tokens, NPC character sheets, etc.

I also created loot handouts to give to the party. Finally, I had to integrate it into my ongoing campaign story.

Overall it took about 8 hours. If it take 400 hours to convert instead of hand drawing everything than either someone is really inefficient or FG is way too work intensive. This isn't a ringing endorsement for FG to me.

 

[Rob Twohy]

400-600 hours seems excessive to me. I converted the original U1 into Roll20, including drawing my own outdoor contour map (which isn't included in the adventure). By converted I mean created from scratch. I drew all of the maps including added the dynamic lighting elements.

That also includes replacing all of the monsters with 5e versions (I substituted Hobgoblins because they fit an ongoing arc IMC). That means creating tokens, NPC character sheets, etc.

I also created loot handouts to give to the party. Finally, I had to integrate it into my ongoing campaign story.

Overall it took about 8 hours. If it take 400 hours to convert instead of hand drawing everything than either someone is really inefficient or FG is way too work intensive. This isn't a ringing endorsement for FG to me.

Well let's see...

Considering the steps it takes to make a book from a WotC property into a Fantasy Grounds module...

1. Resize all images to fit nicely on the screen for users. Maps and artwork.
2. Make Tokens for NPCs.
3. Build all Pregenerated Characters.
4. Build all Rollable Tables.
5. Build all NPCs.
6. Build all (Magic) Items.
7. Build all Backgrounds.
8. Build all Classes.
9. Build all Feats.
10. Build all Races.
11. Build all Skills.
12. Build all Spells.
13. Enter the story entries text (add Encounter and Treasure Parcel markers).
14. Create Encounters and Treasure Parcels and link them into the story entries.
15. Pin appropriate story entries to the maps.
16. Pre-place Encounter tokens on maps.

...and do all that for a 256ish page book? That's what takes 400 hours.

Then you have everything (and much more) than what's in the book at your fingertips. All fully automated and ready to play. The only preparation a DM really need do is familiarize themselves with elements of the story before each session, and you're ready to go.

Someone who claims to make something in 8 hours for Roll20 and says this process isn't a "ringing endorsement for FG"... well... I should think that since ONE PERSON does all that work so that hundreds of thousands can enjoy it (and for HALF THE PRICE of what Roll20 charges for lesser material) it would seem to be very contrary to that belief. I should think one would have the OPPOSITE opinion. But I'm not you.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Well let's see...

Considering the steps it takes to make a book from a WotC property into a Fantasy Grounds module...

1. Resize all images to fit nicely on the screen for users. Maps and artwork.
2. Make Tokens for NPCs.
3. Build all Pregenerated Characters.
4. Build all Rollable Tables.
5. Build all NPCs.
6. Build all (Magic) Items.
7. Build all Backgrounds.
8. Build all Classes.
9. Build all Feats.
10. Build all Races.
11. Build all Skills.
12. Build all Spells.
13. Enter the story entries text (add Encounter and Treasure Parcel markers).
14. Create Encounters and Treasure Parcels and link them into the story entries.
15. Pin appropriate story entries to the maps.
16. Pre-place Encounter tokens on maps.

...and do all that for a 256ish page book? That's what takes 400 hours.

Then you have everything (and much more) than what's in the book at your fingertips. All fully automated and ready to play. The only preparation a DM really need do is familiarize themselves with elements of the story before each session, and you're ready to go.

Someone who claims to make something in 8 hours for Roll20 and says this process isn't a "ringing endorsement for FG"... well... I should think that since ONE PERSON does all that work so that hundreds of thousands can enjoy it (and for HALF THE PRICE of what Roll20 charges for lesser material) it would seem to be very contrary to that belief. I should think one would have the OPPOSITE opinion. But I'm not you.

Why are you building classes, feats, races, and spells? They should already be built as the Saltmarsh series doesn't have anything unique in it. I think you are way exaggerating how much effort it takes. Entering the text is just a copy and paste from a scan (that's assuming you didn't do anything more than that).

 

[bedir than]

Why are you building classes, feats, races, and spells? They should already be built as the Saltmarsh series doesn't have anything unique in it. I think you are way exaggerating how much effort it takes. Entering the text is just a copy and paste from a scan (that's assuming you didn't do anything more than that).

The assumption that the Ghosts of Saltmarsh book only has the three Saltmarsh series modules is your issue. It clearly has more than just that. It has rules about ship play, almost certainly has feats and certain subclasses. We know it has player facing info because it is a 5e book

 

[Rob Twohy]

Why are you building classes, feats, races, and spells? They should already be built as the Saltmarsh series doesn't have anything unique in it. I think you are way exaggerating how much effort it takes. Entering the text is just a copy and paste from a scan (that's assuming you didn't do anything more than that).

I listed a full example of what might be needed, and those are all needed for an example of a book that probably every person using a VTT to play 5E might want, the Player's Handbook. I barely scratched the surface of the many backend processies that are required to make an electronic version of a WotC book that a company would be proud to sell to any user for HALF of what Roll20 does. There's just way more to it than what I laid out in a simple example that a person could read in a minute or two. Until you actually develop titles (which I have), you really wouldn't apprecaite the process. But to say what you did that just because making a licensed work conversion is a lot of work, that doesn't speak well to the VTT itself, well that just makes no sense (to me)!