Sniper Feat

[The Souljourner]

Snipe (Better name pending)

Prerequisites: Sneak Attack, Precise Shot, Far Shot

Benefit: The character may make ranged sneak attacks at a range of 60'. Sniping is a full round action. The character may not make ranged sneak attacks at a distance greater than the range increment of the weapon used.

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Every time you do, it adds 30' to the distance at which you may make ranged sneak attacks.

Normal: Characters without this feat may only make ranged sneak attacks at a range of up to 30'.


Please tell me what you think, and if anyone else has come up with something similar, but better.

This seems pretty balanced to me, since Rogues don't get extra feats to use on the prerequisites, which means a straight human rogue can get this at 3rd, non-human at 6th.

I'm considering making a snipery type guy and I hated the fact that you have to be practically on top of an opponent to be able to use a ranged sneak attack. I mean, 30' is ridiculously close.

My DM thought it might be too good if taken a lot of times, but I put it this way - even if you're a human rogue and take this as every feat from 3rd level onward, you'll get a maximum of 210' at 18th level. And really, at 18th level is that a big deal? Especially when you've had to spend ALL your points on it? I didn't think so either.

-Nate aka The Souljourner

 

[Crothian]

First off, theirs a feat in print with the exact same prerequites but the range is only 45ft and can only be taken once.

Personally for yours I'd add in Precise shot and Sneak attack+4d6. Then each time they want to take it I'd have the sneak attack prerequite up +2d6. So, they can't take the feat again till their sneak attack is +6d6.

Otherwise it's very powerful. Still is, actually. Maybe have the sniper shot as a full round action.....

 

[JDRay]

Have you looked at the Deepwood Sniper PrC from Masters of the Wild?

 

[The Souljourner]

JDRay: I have, and I came to the conclusion that most other people seem to have: It sucks. I mean, True Strike as the 10th level ability? Sheesh. What kinda crap is that?

Quoth Crothian:

First off, theirs a feat in print with the exact same prerequites but the range is only 45ft and can only be taken once.

1.) Where?
2.) So?

Just because there's one already out there doesn't mean mine is bad. Look at toughness, for goodness sake! It's in the PHB and it's total crap.

Do you really think 15 extra feet is worth an entire feat? That's a miniscule difference.

Let me tell you why I think the feat is balanced, and then you can tell me why I'm wrong.

First off, in order to get this feat you have to take two other feats. That's a total of three feats for a class that doesn't get free feats. Three feats is a big commitment for the class. It means you're basically dedicating a significant portion of your time and effort into learning how to be a sniper.

A human rogue can take this at 3rd level if they take no other feats. That means no weapon focus, no improved initiative, no nuthin'. You're basically commited to spending all your time using a bow.

Now, yes you can take it multiple times, but once again, look at the time investment. Feats are few and far between for rogues. Getting a 90' range increment means spending half the feats you will ever get (assuming progression stops at 20) on this one ability. Yes, you can theoretically do a lot of damage at that distance, but 90' is really not that far, and you still don't have some of the best bow feats, like rapid shot. I really think you're overestimating how powerful the feat becomes. It seems to me to make ranged sneak attacks a possibility. I mean, 30' is a normal move action for most races. You might as well be on top of the guy.

Perhaps there needs to be some restrictions, such as not being able to go beyond the range increment of the weapon, and make it a full round action. That, I believe, would be fair.

I'll change the original post to reflect those changes, since they make sense.

-Nate aka The Souljourner

 

[Crothian]

The feat is in Traps and Treachery. I just pointed it out because to Quoth you:

"Please tell me what you think, and if anyone else has come up with something similar, but better. "

Granted, the feat in traps and treachery isn't better, but it is similiar. Oh, and the toughness arguement you make is not completely correct. Toughness is not crap. Perhaps to you it is, but many people have used it effectively.

On to the number of feats thing. What if one chooses to be a fighter/rogue. Feats are much more common then and lose value.


Sixty feet is a long way. Sneak attack does assume you are striking a vulnerable place. Hard to do at a distance. And the 30ft range is there for a reason. Even in the Dragon magazine that tells you hoew to define feats, they say specifically not to mess with it.

Making it a full round action and limiting it to a max distance of the range increment of the weapon is a good start. Alos, I'm just trying to help. I never said your was bad. When you as for what people think, expect to get just that.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

There's also a Feat from Deadlands, I believe, called Marksman. I forget the prereqs, but here's what it lets you do:

You spend one full round aiming at your target. The target must not be making a double move or run. The target must be within the maximum range of your ranged weapon, and must have a "vital area" visible. Targets without discernable vitals or that cannot be affected by critical hits are not affected by this feat. On the second round, the marksman may take a full round action to make a single attack at his normal attack bonus. This attack counts as a Coup de gras.

Should something distract the marksman in this period, he must make an Intelligence check against the damage dealt or a DC set by the Gamemaster.

 

[The Souljourner]

Sorry, if I came off as sounding harsh, I didn't mean to.

I am glad you gave your honest opinion, and I do appreciate the help.

So now we have restricted it to a full round action, which assumes you're lining up your shot precisely, and your target isn't moving much (otherwise he'll get out of range before you get to shoot). You also can't do it beyond your weapon's range increment, which means no penalties due to range, which means it's not ridiculous to think you could hit precisely within that range. Yes, there's a difference between not getting a penalty and being able to hit precisely, but I figure, if you can do it with a dagger and a -4 penalty to hit at 30', you ought to be able to do it with a longbow and no penalty to hit at 90' if you spend half the feats you'll ever get on it.

And yes, if you're a fighter/rogue, it's a lot easier to get, but your sneak attacks will be that much suckier. Also, remember that you can't take Snipe as a fighter feat, so it must be one of the 7 you get during your levelling.

-Nate aka The Souljourner

 

[kaboom]

It is unbalanced unless it is a full round action. Even then you should only be able to take it once.

Here's why.
The base move of a medium sized monster (like a PC) is 30'. That means if I sneak attack someone at 30' (this often occurs as rogues are sneaky) AND take a 30' move I am still just 60' away, which means that the beasty with a 30' movement rate can still nail me with a melee attack by using the charge option.
If, on the other hand I can sneak attack at 60', I can hit the badies fom afar and not get hit if I lose initiative.

Does that make sense?

 

[The Souljourner]

Kaboom - that makes sense, but it's also the exact reason why I'm making the feat.

At 3rd level, a human rogue can take this feat. This consumes all his feats, and thus makes him very specialized. Yes, he's very good at sniping, but he doesn't have weapon focus: Bow, or rapid shot or improved initiative, all things that would make him a better bowman. In return, he gets the ability to stay further away from his targets. Now, once he snipes at someone, that's it. He's probably not going to get another chance as the target becomes aware of his presence. If alone, the rogue will need to flee (most likely, since rogues really aren't built for one on one fighting). Giving him an extra 30' head start makes that possible. Without it, as you point out, it's pretty much impossible to get away, making the ranged sneak attack useless. You simply use it to start a battle with the rest of your compatriots around you, in which case you might as well just run up and attack someone.

A non-human rogue needs to be 6th level before he can take this feat, with all of the above restrictions. At this point, mages are tossing around 6d6 fireballs with a 15' radius at a range of 640 feet. Meanwhile, your rogue is getting 1d8+3d6 damage to a single unaware target at 60'. Now, I know mages are supposed to be a lot more powerful in this sort of thing than rogues, and they are, and that's ok. But my point is, it's not like the extra 30' is going to break the game. It'll just make it a little less likely that your rogue will be immediately turned into pulp.

-Nate aka The Souljourner

 

[Crothian]

Another thing to consider is 3-D attacks. You're assuming the sniper is always going to be on the same flat plane as his attacker. But the better tactic is to go high and shoot down. THis can be effect at the 30ft range, but once you increase it to 60ft and greater, the sniper really has an advantage.

Also, if I were to build a character around this feat I go human Rogue1/fighter 2. Rogue first to get the extra skill points. Take pointblank shot and precise shot. Then switch to fighter for far shot. then another level of fighter which i can get improved iniative and the sniper feat as my 3rd level character feat. I think that would make a very good sniper. From then on I can go all rogue, or take 2 more levels of fighter for weapon specialization. Losing a d6 of sneakk attack hurts, but the extra BAB and feats make up for that IMO.

Still, I think what you have now is a good, balanced feat.