Sniper Feat

[drowdude]

So they're just standing around not doing anything? Why aren't they running after you?

Ok, lets see... why arent they running after you? Hmmm, perhaps because there are other PCs there for them to deal with perhaps?

In a sniper versus victim scenario running at the sniper is very plausible. But in a dynamic combat with several deadly opponents the target may have other things to worry about.

Since I'm assuming the DM is not going to be stupid about it, it's perfectly balanced.

So now my DM (and I) are stupid. Ok then, please quote a line from the Core rulebooks that says that you cannot use Bluff to create a distraction as often as desired in combat.

Yes, there can be circumstance penalties based on the situation and the terrain. But there is nothing that actually says you cannot use this as desired.


And, quite simply, no, it isnt perfectly balanced.

 

[drowdude]

...and to expand beyond core rules for examples a bit...

Look at the feat Quicker Then The Eye, which allows you to use bluff as a move-equivalent action opposed by the observer's Spot check.

Using that as a model you can see that using Bluff to create a diversion/misdirection can involve more that "Hey look it's Elvis!".

 

[The Souljourner]

So now my DM (and I) are stupid.

Did I say that? No. I said "assuming the DM is NOT stupid".

Originally posted by drowdude
Ok then, please quote a line from the Core rulebooks that says that you cannot use Bluff to create a distraction as often as desired in combat.

It's common sense. If you somehow distract everyone present and duck into the bushes, shoot someone in the head, and then try to distract everyone again, they're going to catch on. There aren't rules for every single situation, that's why we HAVE a DM. If your DM wants to let you make a Bluff check every third round of combat, that's his right, but I think most people would agree that it gets to be a little ridiculous.

Originally posted by drowdude
Yes, there can be circumstance penalties based on the situation and the terrain. But there is nothing that actually says you cannot use this as desired.

There's nothing that says you can't use improved critical keen vorpal bladed gauntlets either, but I doubt you'll see many of those in any reasonable campaign.

There are plenty of rules that are open to abuse, but as long as your DM doesn't simply act like an automaton, it's not a big problem. DMs make decisions and judgements all the time. Just because the rules don't say you can't do something, doesn't mean you can. It's up to your DM to decide what's reasonable. Maybe your DM thinks it's reasonable to be able to distract the same people time and time again. I personally don't think it is.

Of course, even assuming you can do this, it means you get one sneak attack every 3 rounds. I don't think that's unbalancing at all. And the difference between 30 feet and 60 feet is negligible in this situation since you've already admitted that the enemies aren't going to go after him anyway. So where's the problem? The only thing that makes 60 feet good is in the situation where the sniper is going to have someone come after him.

-The Souljourner

 

[drowdude]

Did I say that? No. I said "assuming the DM is NOT stupid".

Twas inferred.

It's common sense.

Sorry, but you cant use that argument when discussing the application of abstract rules. Either it's allowed by the rules or it's not.
Since we are discussing house rules here you are, of course, free to establish whatever limits you want on various abilities and combinations.
But seeing as how those aspects of your house rules were not put up for consideration when you presented the feat you cant expect others to judge according to them.

So where's the problem?

The problem is that sneak attack can be *very* devastating, especially at higher levels, one of the primary restrictions on this ability is the range at which it can be used.

Any rogue who wants to get the most out of his SA would be a fool not to devote some of his feats to this.

You also keep saying that the rogue's limited number of feats is a balance for this feat. But that's nonsense since a couple of levels of fighter can help them knock those prereqs out quickly.

Like I said, you have to look at it from a min-max point of view.

A high level rogue could have PbSh, PrecSh, FarSh, & RapSh + devote 4 to yer Snipe feat giving him a SA range of 150'.

4 shots at +10d6 from 150' away doesnt seem unreasonable to you eh?

 

[The Souljourner]

Drowdude - I definitely didn't mean to infer that you were stupid, you've been making good arguments even though I may disagree with them.

Now, I realize that you can take a couple levels of fighter and gain 2 extra feats, which would be helpful, but keep in mind it also lowers your sneak attack by 1d6. Yes, at 19th level, 3 feats seems pretty insignificant in the scheme of things, but unless you're just making a 19th level character out of the blue, you have to actually take these feats during levelling, at which time they don't really help a whole lot.

Here's where I stand - it's a full round action to use this ability, so you don't get 4 shots at 10d6, you get one. You can then spend two rounds hiding again, and the next round get another one. And if you want to go by your interpretation, you can repeat this.

That's one shot every 3 rounds. I think that's more than fair.

And that's the last I'll say about it. Obviously we're not going to agree, so you can not allow it in your campaign, and I can allow it in mine, and that'll be that.

-The Souljourner

 

[drowdude]

First.... Duh! Sorry, I had forgotten that you had changed it to a full-round action! I was working off what I recalled from my initial read of the feat.


Iz kewl, I just wanted to make sure you realized how powerful the feat could be. This opinion comes from having had the experience of playing a rogue from 4th to 14th level and seeing how devastating SA can be just at 30'. It would have been that much worse if I could have been doing all that damage at 2 or 3 times that range.