Sniper Feat

[The Souljourner]

Still, I think what you have now is a good, balanced feat.

Cool, thanks for the input guys, I think the feat is a lot more solid now, and less open to abuse.

For people who are interested in this type of character, there's a Commando PrC in The Quintessential Rogue. I only skimmed over it, but it looks pretty cool. The main problem I have with it is that it's a 5 level class, which irks me. It's like they just didn't feel like putting in the effort needed for a 10 level class. But anyway, check it out if you have the time and inclination.

-The Souljourner

 

[Crothian]

Cool, thanks for the input guys, I think the feat is a lot more solid now, and less open to abuse.

For people who are interested in this type of character, there's a Commando PrC in The Quintessential Rogue. I only skimmed over it, but it looks pretty cool. The main problem I have with it is that it's a 5 level class, which irks me. It's like they just didn't feel like putting in the effort needed for a 10 level class. But anyway, check it out if you have the time and inclination.

-The Souljourner

Actually, it works well as a five level class. I perfer these to the ten level variety because it help to refine a character concept, and not define your character concept. When you look at a ten level prestige class many people feel that have to take all ten levels and that hampers that can hamper their character focus.

 

[drowdude]

As someone who has been playing a rogue for a while now I can tell you straight up that the feat is unbalanced no matter what prereqs you toss on it.

I was able to dominate most combats by moving in and out of combat and sniping with my bow and then running in for melee flanking towards the end of the fight. I was doing more damage, more consistently than any other member of the party.

Sneak Attack is a *very* potent ability when used properly.

With your feats and some boots of striding and springing I would have been virtually untouchable. Which, while it sounds kewl, would have negative effect on the game in general.

Just the 15' that Improved Ranged Sneak Attack from Traps & Treachery gives you is a massive boon. I actually prefer the version called "Extended Point Blank Range" from Diomin: Acceptance of Fate, which has more prereqs and only gives a 10' bonus to the range, but has wider applications.

This sort of thing (toned down just a bit) would prolly make for an excellent Epic Level feat or high-end Prestige Class ability but I wouldnt allow it in regular play.

 

[The Souljourner]

As someone who has been playing a rogue for a while now I can tell you straight up that the feat is unbalanced no matter what prereqs you toss on it.

I was able to dominate most combats by moving in and out of combat and sniping with my bow and then running in for melee flanking towards the end of the fight. I was doing more damage, more consistently than any other member of the party./QUOTE]

Except that you can't sneak attack people while they're in combat unless you're flanking them, which is obviously impossible with a missile weapon. So, the only time you could use it when they're in combat is when they're denied their dexterity bonus for some reason, which I'm sure you know doesn't happen that often.

So moving in and out of combat and sniping with your bow is not effective (or at least no more effective than when anyone else does it).

Originally posted by Crothian
Actually, it works well as a five level class. I perfer these to the ten level variety because it help to refine a character concept, and not define your character concept. When you look at a ten level prestige class many people feel that have to take all ten levels and that hampers that can hamper their character focus.

Actually, you bring up a good point here. I've wanted to take prestige classes before, but 10 levels is pretty much your entire character if you're taking it at 7th-8th, and sometimes I don't want the PrC to dominate my character that way.

Huh. Thanks for the counterpoint. I looked at it from a purely quantitative perspective, but perhaps it's a good thing in some respects. Especially considering rogues who by there very nature rarely fit into one specific mold.

-The Souljourner

 

[Crothian]

Drowdude does have a point. Combined with magic this is very good. Cast haste so you can use that extra partial action for a move and improved invisibility of Blimking so all your attacks are considered sneak attacks. Add to that the ever so populiar Boots of striding and springing and you can have a lot of fun at the enimies expense.

I'm not saying this totally destroys the feat, just some more things to think about.

From Drowdude: "I actually prefer the version called "Extended Point Blank Range" from Diomin: Acceptance of Fate, which has more prereqs and only gives a 10' bonus to the range, but has wider applications. "

What prerequistes do they have on theirs?

 

[drowdude]

Except that you can't sneak attack people while they're in combat unless you're flanking them, which is obviously impossible with a missile weapon. So, the only time you could use it when they're in combat is when they're denied their dexterity bonus for some reason, which I'm sure you know doesn't happen that often.

So moving in and out of combat and sniping with your bow is not effective (or at least no more effective than when anyone else does it).

Um....no....you are wrong.... if the target is unaware of you (thus losing their Dex bonus against you), you can sneak attack. Goes something like....

Win Initiative: Sneak Attack (+ Exp. Tact. if you have it), move away(since they are flat footed they cant AoO for attacking then moving... 2nd round hide.... 3rd round Sneak Attack... 4th round hide... 5th round sneak attack.... etc... etc... then towards the end of the combat you can move into flanking position on the boss-man and full-attack on him with Sneak Attacks.

Other things like Haste, Invisiblity, the Disapear spell from Relics & Rituals, Improved Invisbility, Blink, etc... make this process even easier.

Other techniques include using Quicker Than The Eye to Bluff then Sneak Attack each round. This can be done at a range of 30' as well.

Various protective spells that nerf SA can be brought down by a well-placed Dispel (or Greater Dispelling).

 

[drowdude]

From Drowdude: "I actually prefer the version called "Extended Point Blank Range" from Diomin: Acceptance of Fate, which has more prereqs and only gives a 10' bonus to the range, but has wider applications. "

What prerequistes do they have on theirs?

Extended Point Blank Shot

Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +5, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot.

Extends you point-blank range out to 40' for all ranged attacks. This includes Sneak Attacks, Favored Enemy Bonuses, the bonuses of the PBS feat, etc.. etc...

 

[The Souljourner]

Um....no....you are wrong.... if the target is unaware of you (thus losing their Dex bonus against you), you can sneak attack. Goes something like....

Win Initiative: Sneak Attack (+ Exp. Tact. if you have it), move away(since they are flat footed they cant AoO for attacking then moving... 2nd round hide.... 3rd round Sneak Attack...

Except that you can't hide when someone is watching you, and I can guarantee that if I got shot in the neck with an arrow, I'd keep an eye on that shifty looking guy with the bow.

Other things like Haste, Invisiblity, the Disapear spell from Relics & Rituals, Improved Invisbility, Blink, etc... make this process even easier.

Yes yes, but 1.) The rogue can't cast these spells, so you're basing the fact that it's too powerful on the assumption that some spellcaster is going to buff him up every battle. 2.) All those things works in melee just as well, and the 50% miss chance means that you're probably relatively safe. So which would YOU rather do? Sit back invisible and take one pot shot per round, or walk up and full attack the bastard every round?

Good lord, you're saying that haste + improved invisibility + my feat is too good... listen to what you're saying. Of *course* if your spellcaster decides to cast a 4th level spell and a 3rd level spell on your rogue, he's going to be kicking ass. My feat has nothing to do with that. All rogues kick as when they're improvedly invisible and hasted. Sheesh.


By the way - I took a closer look at the Commando class tonight and it gets 60' sneak attack at 5th level (its last level). It also gets to apply point blank shot at that distance, and in fact doubles its bonus (to +2). I'm not saying that's justification, I just find it interesting that I was making a feat and a PrC I had considered taking already has the ability.

-The Souljourner

 

[drowdude]

Except that you can't hide when someone is watching you, and I can guarantee that if I got shot in the neck with an arrow, I'd keep an eye on that shifty looking guy with the bow.

Ah, I left out a key part in the Hide rounds... Bluff to create a distraction...*then* hide....

Yes yes, but 1.) The rogue can't cast these spells, so you're basing the fact that it's too powerful on the assumption that some spellcaster is going to buff him up every battle. 2.) All those things works in melee just as well, and the 50% miss chance means that you're probably relatively safe. So which would YOU rather do? Sit back invisible and take one pot shot per round, or walk up and full attack the bastard every round?

1.) Not directly, but all it takes is a nice helping of ranks in Use Magic Device, and a bit of gold to buy some scrolls and the rogue is self-sufficent in that regard.

2.) Depends on the situation. A 1d6+4+6d6 pot shot every other round (or every round with Haste or Quicker Than The Eye) from relative safety is always a *very* nice option.

Good lord, you're saying that haste + improved invisibility + my feat is too good... listen to what you're saying. Of *course* if your spellcaster decides to cast a 4th level spell and a 3rd level spell on your rogue, he's going to be kicking ass. My feat has nothing to do with that. All rogues kick as when they're improvedly invisible and hasted. Sheesh.

Right, but they still have to stay within a certain range (30') even with those spells up. Which means they are still vulnerable to attacks from other combatants. With your feat they can just sit back and demolish anything that isnt immune to sneak attack freely. And that is BS.

You have to look at the effect a feat will have on the game in the hands of a min-maxed character.

 

[The Souljourner]

Ah, I left out a key part in the Hide rounds... Bluff to create a distraction...*then* hide....

So standard action - bluff for a distraction, standard action hide, shoot. Repeat. So that's one shot every 3 rounds. And these guys aren't running after you why?

Also, the second time you try to bluff a distraction, you're going to get a severe penalty since your target is going to be expecting it. In fact, if I were DM I'd give you a -20 penalty. "Look, it's Elvis!" only works so well so many times.

Right, but they still have to stay within a certain range (30') even with those spells up. Which means they are still vulnerable to attacks from other combatants. With your feat they can just sit back and demolish anything that isnt immune to sneak attack freely. And that is BS.

So they're just standing around not doing anything? Why aren't they running after you?

Let me give you a more realistic scenario:

Sniper pops a shot off at a group of unaware Bad Guys from 60' away, getting his sneak attack. Combat starts and everyone rolls initiative. Being the dextrous rogue that he is, Sniper wins initiative. He now has a choice.

1.) He can pop off another sneak attack at sniper range, but since that takes a full round action, he won't be able to move, and thus he'll be open to charges by the Bad Guys.

2.) He can try to distract the guys so they don't see him next round when he attempts to hide. Assuming they're typical fightery type guys and not exactly up on their sense motive checks, this should be fairly simple. Probably won't work more than once however.

3.) He can run, hoping to lose them or at least find an opportunity to hide again.

4.) He can charge one of the Bad Guys and sneak attack him before he gets to move. This is obviously a bad choice because we all know that rogues suck at one on one fighting.

So, what does he do? Probably either run and hide or create a distraction and hide. However, creating a distraction will probably only work once (at least with any reasonable DM), and running means finding a good place to hide while on the run.

Either way, it is extremely unlikely that you'll be able to pull off a sniper shot every other round unless your DM is VERY lenient.

Since I'm assuming the DM is not going to be stupid about it, it's perfectly balanced.

-The Souljourner