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D&D 5E So 5 Intelligence Huh

Yardiff

Adventurer
Hriston here's an article about IQ in D&D, did you miss it the first time? I re-posted for you since you seem disinclined to go back and review things.




Spent about a minute doing a web search and found this article....it was written when 3e/3.5 was new.

website 'superdan.net'


How Does Intelligence Relate to IQ?


Overview

Occasionally, D&D enthusiasts will discuss or debate how the game ability "Intelligence" score properly relates to the real-world measurement of "Intelligence Quotient" (IQ). This almost always spawns a heated debate, in large part due to the controversy over IQ-scores general (what it seeks to measure, how valid the measurement is, whether testing procedures are fair, how the tests have changed over time, etc.), and aggravated as some find it problematic to measure IQ in fantasy non-humans, animals, and monsters.

The original AD&D ruleset actually addressed this in the core rulebooks. Each of the AD&D 1st Ed. Monster Manuals included the assertion that "Intelligence indicates the basic equivalent of human ‘IQ’" (MM p. 6, FF p. 7, MM2 p. 6, Deities & Demigods p. 6). Some slight restatement of this assertion appears in the later references; the DDG page adds a clause that the ratings specifically do apply "in monsters", while the FF page adds the parenthetical note "at least in concept even if IQ itself appears now to be much disgraced". Presumably this equivalence would be for intended for adult IQ scores.

Granted that the original designer of D&D (Gary E. Gygax, who created the various ability scores such as Intelligence in the first place, and wrote the original Monster Manual) specified that Intelligence does indicate a certain IQ rating, and that 10 is an average human D&D Intelligence, while 100 is an average real-world IQ, the simplest relation is to assume that Int = IQ / 10. This assumption is in fact borne out by the existence of a somewhat light-hearted article published in Dragon Magazine, issue #8, for converting real-life players’ characteristics into D&D statistics, which asserts: "To determine your intelligence, look up the results of the most recent IQ test you have taken and divide the result by ten. This number is your intelligence rating." (Dragon #8, "So, You Want Realism in D&D?", by Brian Blume).

Finally, the same principle has been upheld for the most recent edition of the game. The Official D&D FAQ says this: "A character with an Intelligence score of 3 is smarter than most animals, but only barely... Ten points of IQ per point of Intelligence is a good rule of thumb, so your example character has an IQ of about 30." (D&D FAQ, Version 3.5; Update Version 09/28/05, p. 2).




Alternate Theories

Some D&D players are never satisfied with a rule as simple as the preceding. One of the most popular alternate theories by D&D gamers who are unaware of this history is to theorize that they should "compare the bell curves". That is, they contend that one should calculate a relation by considering what percentage of real-world people have a certain IQ range (constructed specifically with a 100 mean, and standard deviation of 16), and map that to a range of equal percentage likelihood when rolling 3 six-sided dice (range of 3-18, with a 10.5 mean, and standard deviation of 2.95). The end result is a formula such as Int = (IQ – 100) / 16 * 2.95 + 10.5.

A relation like this has the effect of scaling the extremes of IQ scores further out on the Int scale. This presents several practical problems: (1) animal-level intelligence would correspond to Int 1 = IQ 48 or Int 2 = IQ 53, which would be high enough to learn language; (2) the minimum for humans, Int 3 = IQ 60, is sufficiently high as to entirely miss several categories of real-world intelligence deficiencies (see below); and (3) the maximum for humans, Int 18 = IQ 141, is actually far below the results for some real-world people on standardized IQ tests.

The best example of this last problem is the Guinness record-holder for Highest IQ, Marilyn vos Savant, who reportedly has an IQ score of 228 (subject to some debate; see links at end). Under the "compare the bell curves" theory, this would translate to Int 34, which is wildly beyond the range possible in D&D by rolling 3d6 (in fact, beyond the range of most gods in D&D). Even if we are skeptical of this IQ score, considering the previous record holder’s IQ of 196 results in Int 28, again far beyond the 3-18 result achievable in D&D. In contrast, the simpler linear relation properly brings these scores into the more reasonable range of 19 and 22, which is in fact naturally achievable in D&D via several methods. (E.g., a roll of 18 plus a few age or level-based ability bonuses, reasonable point buy, etc. The "compare the bell curves" method is not remotely correctable even by maximizing such increases.)

One amusing "advantage" of the scaled curve system is that it strokes D&D players’ egos by making them look extremely smart in game terms. I’ve seen multiple online discussions of this topic in which everyone participating gleefully points out that their IQ scores translate to a D&D Intelligence of 18 or more under this model, and feel that that’s entirely reasonable.

The simplest response to the "compare the bell curves" theory is that there’s no necessity for the fantasy population of a D&D world to exhibit the same deviation (or mean) in intelligence as real-world humans. In fact, there’s no strict requirement that the fantasy population actually matches the bell curve of a 3d6 random variable. It may in fact be a good idea to use a character-generation method that creates interesting, outside-the-norm, exceptional characters with greater frequency than exists in the actual population.

Another alternate theory is that IQ shouldn’t be directly related to Intelligence at all, but rather that a formula should be generated that combines all the D&D mental abilities (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma), weighting them in some fashion to generate the IQ score. This can be discounted mostly as a frustrated response to not having a clear real-world measurement or translation for the Wisdom or Charisma abilities. Clearly: (a) "Intelligence Quotient" is by definition a measurement of "Intelligence", and (b) the original designer comments (above) explicitly indicated an IQ:Int relationship and nothing else.


Int and IQ Categories

In each of the original AD&D monster books, a table of descriptive Intelligence categories was included, reproduced below. Among other details, note that Int 10 has always indicated "average (human) intelligence", while the maximum natural score of Int 18 is considered a "genius", and anything beyond that is apparently extra-human, titled "supra-genius" or "godlike".



Int AD&D Rating

0 Non-intelligent or not ratable

1 Animal intelligence

2-4 Semi-intelligent

5-7 Low intelligence

8-10 Average (human) intelligence

11-12 Very intelligent

13-14 Highly intelligent

15-16 Exceptionally intelligent

17-18 Genius

19-20 Supra-genius

21+ Godlike intelligence


IQ ratings, however they are tested or generated, are scaled so that a score of 100 is average for a person taking the test (in a particular age category). The original IQ classifications by Terman are reproduced below (taken from http://members.shaw.ca/delajara/IQBasics.html ). A few similarities can be noted to the table of AD&D Intelligence above: (1) the Int ratings usually go up by factors of 2 points, while the IQ categories usually rise in steps of 20 points, (2) at the upper end, an Int of 17-18 indicates a "genius", while a 170-180 IQ would also be categorized as "genius". This strongly indicates that the D&D system was in fact designed with an eye towards a x10 translation between IQ and Intelligence.



IQ Stanford-Binet I Classification:

to 20 Idiot

20-49 Imbecile

50-69 Moron

70-80 Borderline deficiency

80-90 Dullness

90-110 Normal or average intelligence

110-120 Superior intelligence

120-140 Very superior intelligence

140+ Genius or near genius




What you take from this is up to you.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That may be true. You've said it twice now, at least. I have no intention of going back over the thread to find out who you're talking about, nor do I think it's relevant, since I believe it was [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] with whom I was discussing that issue when I made my comments about the frequency of IQ scores as they are defined. If you think it's important, and/or adds to the discussion in some way, you are, of course, welcome to reference the post in question.

To be fair, me too. I also thought I was first to bring it up and am not willing to wade back and find out :p
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
No, was talking about the time you spent building the averaging 3d6 vs IQ table and how you said that you were planning on running a game using that.

That wasn't what I said. I said I was planning on running a game using that stat generation method. I said nothing about me running a game where a character's Intelligence correlates to a particular IQ score. You know, I think most of our conversation here has been about you assuming things about my arguments that I haven't actually said, and then me having to clarify what I'm saying, when I think I've been pretty clear in the first place.


Too be fair, I've spent time explaining how your ideas were wrong, not exploring them.

Maybe that's why I keep feeling like you haven't actually read what I've written.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Hriston here's an article about IQ in D&D, did you miss it the first time? I re-posted for you since you seem disinclined to go back and review things.

I remember that from when you posted it. I didn't find it very convincing. For one thing, it's written from the point of view of there being an official rule in the then current edition of D&D. While the author has some good points, the arguments seem generally biased towards supporting the Int x 10 tradition. Also, there is no consideration of the suggested use of averaging dice in the 1st Edition DMG, which to my knowledge has never before been brought up in relation to the Intelligence/IQ question before this thread, and puts to rest many of the difference between proponents of the two methods described.

So, does this mean you were the poster to which you were referring as having brought up the Int x 10 argument? Because I'm pretty sure you posted this after we were already discussing the issue.
 

Yardiff

Adventurer
I remember that from when you posted it. I didn't find it very convincing. For one thing, it's written from the point of view of there being an official rule in the then current edition of D&D. While the author has some good points, the arguments seem generally biased towards supporting the Int x 10 tradition. Also, there is no consideration of the suggested use of averaging dice in the 1st Edition DMG, which to my knowledge has never before been brought up in relation to the Intelligence/IQ question before this thread, and puts to rest many of the difference between proponents of the two methods described.

So, does this mean you were the poster to which you were referring as having brought up the Int x 10 argument? Because I'm pretty sure you posted this after we were already discussing the issue.

Nope.

Also your arguments don't take into account the stat caps that were/are in place. Your numbers have an 180 IQ as being a 23 int but since 1e and 2e had a human max of 18 those numbers don't work.
and they still don't work for 5e which has a cap of 20, unless of course your saying that D&D characters NPC/PC's cant have in game equivalent to a high IQ.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth

So the mystery continues...

Also your arguments don't take into account the stat caps that were/are in place. Your numbers have an 180 IQ as being a 23 int but since 1e and 2e had a human max of 18 those numbers don't work.

Why not? How common do you think a 180 IQ is? Also, those aren't my numbers, at least not my most recent ones.

and they still don't work for 5e which has a cap of 20, unless of course your saying that D&D characters NPC/PC's cant have in game equivalent to a high IQ.

You don't need a 180 to have a high IQ. I'm not sure where you get that idea.
 


Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Yeah, Mensa's 98th-percentile requirement works out to an IQ of 130ish.

If general characters in your world use 3d6, that's as common as a 16 or 17. If they use averaging dice, that's a 14. It's certainly not beyond the realm of possibility no matter what edition you're playing.
 

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