D&D 5E So 5 Intelligence Huh

[Lanliss]

Who knows. Not my business and she seems to like him anyway.

Are you sure she is intelligent enough to have a good judge of character?

 

[Zardnaar]

Are you sure she is intelligent enough to have a good judge of character?

No she is not, that is why some of the others are looking out for her. We just call her Babs.

 

[pemerton]

I think you should use another word than irrational.

Irrational, from dictionary.com:

3. not in accordance with reason​

In the case I am describing, the character is acting in a way which s/he has no reason to, and in fact has reason not to (although s/he is ignorant of this); hence, s/he is not acting in accordance with reason.

I'm referring to an objective property of the action (its contrariness to reason), not to a subjective property of the character's state of mind (eg I am not suggesting that the character is acting akratically).

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Either respond to my argument without attempting to distort it, or go discuss this with someone else.

Practice what you preach, Max.

The exchange leading up to this post has consisted entirely of me having said your method was more exact - read: comparatively exact, alternative reading: subjectively exact - than mine, and you distorting that by ignoring context into a claim that I was saying your method is exact in an objective sense, and then telling me that I am wrong.

 

[Maxperson]

Irrational, from dictionary.com:

3. not in accordance with reason​

In the case I am describing, the character is acting in a way which s/he has no reason to, and in fact has reason not to (although s/he is ignorant of this); hence, s/he is not acting in accordance with reason.

He has a very reason to act against his goals. That reason is stupidity. Acting in accordance with reason =/= doing the right thing. Reasonable ideas are often wrong and/or end up achieving the wrong or even opposite goals.

I'm referring to an objective property of the action (its contrariness to reason), not to a subjective property of the character's state of mind (eg I am not suggesting that the character is acting akratically).

The action is not contrary to reason, though. The stupid PC is acting on reason, even if that reason results in bad things.

 

[Guest 6801328]

He has a very reason to act against his goals. That reason is stupidity. Acting in accordance with reason =/= doing the right thing. Reasonable ideas are often wrong and/or end up achieving the wrong or even opposite goals.



The action is not contrary to reason, though. The stupid PC is acting on reason, even if that reason results in bad things.

By your definitions I think it's possible that "irrationality" is logically impossible.

 

[Maxperson]

By your definitions I think it's possible that "irrationality" is logically impossible.

Nope. You just have to be capable of knowing what the right thing is and then do the wrong thing anyway.

 

[pemerton]

I suspect I'm the only published academic philosopher and lawyer still posting in this thread. I'm not that interested in a debate over the usage of the term "irrational", but I'm quite comfortable - especially in the context of a relatively informal and methodologically relaxed discussion - in describing as irrational the actions of a person who thwarts his/her own goals and interests because of his/her ignorance and cognitive inadequacies. The person has a reason - in virtue of those goals/interests - to refrain from Xing, but due to the aforementioned ignorance and cognitive inadequacies nevertheless Xes. Hence s/he acts in a way that does not accord with the reasons that are applicable to her. (And it's just a bad pun to say that because her behaviour is nevertheless capable of explanation, by reference to her stupidty, and therefore can be said to have a reason that underlies it, that therefore there is a reason to act that way.)

Akratic behaviour - ie believing that it would be sensible to do X but not doing X anyway - is one species of irrational behaviour, but not the only one.

 

[Maxperson]

I suspect I'm the only published academic philosopher and lawyer still posting in this thread.

An Appeal to Authority fails on its face. What you do is irrelevant.

I'm not that interested in a debate over the usage of the term "irrational", but I'm quite comfortable - especially in the context of a relatively informal and methodologically relaxed discussion - in describing as irrational the actions of a person who thwarts his/her own goals and interests because of his/her ignorance and cognitive inadequacies. The person has a reason - in virtue of those goals/interests - to refrain from Xing, but due to the aforementioned ignorance and cognitive inadequacies nevertheless Xes. Hence s/he acts in a way that does not accord with the reasons that are applicable to her. (And it's just a bad pun to say that because her behaviour is nevertheless capable of explanation, by reference to her stupidty, and therefore can be said to have a reason that underlies it, that therefore there is a reason to act that way.)

Akratic behaviour - ie believing that it would be sensible to do X but not doing X anyway - is one species of irrational behaviour, but not the only one.

Since you like dictionary.com. My responses will be in bold.

rational
[rash-uh-nl, rash-nl]
Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective

1. agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible:
a rational plan for economic development.

This does not apply since being agreeable to reason is not part of this discussion about the stupid PC's actions

2. having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense:
a calm and rational negotiator.

The stupid PC has exercised reason and possibly sound judgment and good sense (we don't know because there are no specifics). You can choose an action that runs contrary to your goals and still have it based on good judgment or good sense, but it just didn't work out as planned. The stupid person can easily be rational with his actions by this definition.

3. being in or characterized by full possession of one's reason; sane; lucid:
The patient appeared perfectly rational.

Stupid doesn't mean insane, so this one does not apply.

4.endowed with the faculty of reason:
rational beings.

Stupid people are endowed with the faculty of reason, so by this definition the PC is rational.

5.of, relating to, or constituting reasoning powers:
the rational faculty.

This really doesn't apply, either.

6.proceeding or derived from reason or based on reasoning:
a rational explanation.

An action that runs contrary to the PC's goal, but is the result of the PC being unaware and is based on reasoning is rational by this definition.

7.Mathematics.
capable of being expressed exactly by a ratio of two integers.
(of a function) capable of being expressed exactly by a ratio of two polynomials.

Does not apply

So of 7 definitions, we have 4 that don't apply. 2 that say the stupid PC is rational, even though he's acting against his goals. And 1 that says he is rational and also potentially irrational, depending on the specifics.

That doesn't support you too well.

 

[iserith]

At least now we know what Charisma 5 looks like.