D&D 5E So, 5e OGL

[Tony Vargas]

Pathfinder isn't a 3rd party publisher for D&D anymore, they're a 1st party publisher of their own game.

Paizo publishes Pathfinder, which is a d20 OGL game. It's not technically producing tons of adventures and other cool stuff for 3.5 D&D, but for Pathfinder, which is a clone thereof. FWIW.

I am of course referring to the third-party publishers who wish to sell *5E* material... which should have been blatantly obvious.

I saw a "5E" branded adventure produced by a 3pp. It wasn't even that bad, I found it a little evocative of older classic D&D adventures. It wasn't technically being sold, it was at Free RPG Day, but there have been a few such things produced. It was published under the 1.0 OGL, and assiduously avoided saying it was for 5e D&D, saying, instead "the Fifth edition of the First RPG," and with it's own 5E-in-a-pentagon logo, instead of the 5e ampersand.

It probably doesn't matter if there's ever a 5e OGL or not - 5e is similar enough to 3.x/d20 that the old OGL works.

 

[Mark CMG]

if you'd actually answer the question I've repeatedly posed as part of the discussion. But if you don't answer it, that tells me that my opinion is probably right on the money. You of course don't have to answer it...

I've answered you in the past on any number of occasions. You keep asking questions to which you have received answers as if they are new questions that haven't been answered, then repeating that the questions have not been answered. It's quite bizarre. Then again, I've gotten used to it. I won't be responding to any question you've asked me previously, even if rephrased, so you'll just have to dig up the answer from before. I will, however, mark this post and link to it each time I notice that you decide to repeat the same questions. Hopefully, that will help remind you. I'm not finding it very interesting or fun but if it is fun for you, go right ahead and spend your time at it.

 

[prosfilaes]

It probably doesn't matter if there's ever a 5e OGL or not - 5e is similar enough to 3.x/d20 that the old OGL works.

It matters to some people. Not everyone is going to rush out to publish for a system just because you have a legal argument about the matter. It didn't work for WotC back in the day; hopefully Hasbro is less litigious than Palladium. Besides that, there's some gentleman's ideals about not pushing the lines of copyright for game rules and compatibility, that you don't commercially publish for a game system that the owners don't want you to.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I've answered you in the past on any number of occasions. You keep asking questions to which you have received answers as if they are new questions that haven't been answered, then repeating that the questions have not been answered. It's quite bizarre. Then again, I've gotten used to it. I won't be responding to any question you've asked me previously, even if rephrased, so you'll just have to dig up the answer from before. I will, however, mark this post and link to it each time I notice that you decide to repeat the same questions. Hopefully, that will help remind you. I'm not finding it very interesting or fun but if it is fun for you, go right ahead and spend your time at it.

Well, in that case if that's what you actually believe... you need never respond back to me every time in the future I call you out on your repeated claims that WotC should know by now just how good the OGL would be for 5E. You can continue to make the statement that it's in WotC's best interest and you can't understand their lack of forethought... and I'll chime in that you have no evidence or proof of your claims and thus it's a pretty good indicator as to why they have chosen to not as of yet do anything with it.

But we're both in luck! Eventually they probably WILL do something OGL/GSL/3PP related and then you can focus on creating products for 5E and will no longer comment on it... and I'll stop commenting back asking for proof. We all win!

 

[I'm A Banana]

Reasons that it may be in WotC's interest to OGL-ify 5e

1. Quality Control. Charging money for your 5e material enforces a level of professionalism on it, because people pay more if it's not a hack job.
2. Talent Pipeline. Because of the higher level of professionalism, you're nurturing people who have experience in creating D&D material that people will pay money for - the better to see who might be good to outsource things to or who might be the next Mike or Jeremy.
3. Support For Those Who Want It. The easiest way to give people more product is to let anyone make it and charge money for it. Those who need or want more product can buy professional OGL stuff, those who don't don't have to to "keep up."
4. Network Effects. More support for niche products that might be unprofitable for you = people playing RPGs = more people playing D&D.
5. Community-Building. Small, plucky publishers with good product encourage small communities of loyalists who might not feel able to join WotC's group. Without the "indie scene," these folks might just fall away from D&D all together - a sympathetic publisher can keep them in. (ENWorld only exists as it does today because of the OGL, forex)
6. Innovation and Growth. More people making product for you = more diversity and robustness in that product = free market research and exposure to the innovation necessary to "stand out from the pack." Good ideas can percolate back into D&D proper.

One could also possibly make a list of reasons they SHOULDN'T go OGL, but that doesn't erase that the above would be gains that WotC would experience. Whether those gains would offset the loss...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Reasons that it may be in WotC's interest to OGL-ify 5e

1. Quality Control. Charging money for your 5e material enforces a level of professionalism on it, because people pay more if it's not a hack job.
2. Talent Pipeline. Because of the higher level of professionalism, you're nurturing people who have experience in creating D&D material that people will pay money for - the better to see who might be good to outsource things to or who might be the next Mike or Jeremy.
3. Support For Those Who Want It. The easiest way to give people more product is to let anyone make it and charge money for it. Those who need or want more product can buy professional OGL stuff, those who don't don't have to to "keep up."
4. Network Effects. More support for niche products that might be unprofitable for you = people playing RPGs = more people playing D&D.
5. Community-Building. Small, plucky publishers with good product encourage small communities of loyalists who might not feel able to join WotC's group. Without the "indie scene," these folks might just fall away from D&D all together - a sympathetic publisher can keep them in. (ENWorld only exists as it does today because of the OGL, forex)
6. Innovation and Growth. More people making product for you = more diversity and robustness in that product = free market research and exposure to the innovation necessary to "stand out from the pack." Good ideas can percolate back into D&D proper.

One could also possibly make a list of reasons they SHOULDN'T go OGL, but that doesn't erase that the above would be gains that WotC would experience. Whether those gains would offset the loss...

I will say I agree with some of those and disagree with others, but one in particular I have to call out...

Quality Control. Charging money for your 5e material enforces a level of professionalism on it, because people pay more if it's not a hack job.

Unless something has changed, I think this one is the opposite of what you say. With an OGL the amount of 'meh' and slightly off material will sky rocket... and that's not counting openly bad stuff... No if you want Quality Control you want a Limited License that assures ONLY people who know what they are doing make stuff...

 

[I'm A Banana]

Unless something has changed, I think this one is the opposite of what you say. With an OGL the amount of 'meh' and slightly off material will sky rocket... and that's not counting openly bad stuff... No if you want Quality Control you want a Limited License that assures ONLY people who know what they are doing make stuff...

Look at the production values on something like Nyambe or Oathbound or the Tome of Horrors or Denizens of Avadnu or Arcana Evolved or even something like Testament (especially when compared with some early 3.0 softcovers).

Quality is one way you compete for dollars. If there's no dollars (and no competition), there's no incentive to make high-quality product. Given that people will also charge money for crud if they can get away with it, it's not surprising that there'd be some crud, too, but if there's no money to be made in producing quality, you're not going to find much quality.

I think that most of those who would seriously argue that nearly everything put out under the OGL was junk are basing their opinions on a distorted stereotype of shovel-splat that grabbed some attention, but that is only one part of a much greater ecosystem.

No OGL can mean that all you'll get is the shovel-splat, since there's no incentive to make a beautiful product to stand out from the crowd.

A more limited license - including one that costs a bit to get going (maybe something that's like $50 or $75) can further double-down on that, but the simple ability to sell a product for money drives high-quality products to be created, because there is a potential reward for that investment. 3e had more high-quality product than most gamers could buy, especially given that WotC was putting out high-quality stuff at the same time!

 

[kenmarable]

Look at the production values on something like Nyambe or Oathbound or the Tome of Horrors or Denizens of Avadnu or Arcana Evolved or even something like Testament (especially when compared with some early 3.0 softcovers).

I think you both are probably right. In "OGL vs no license", then with an OGL there is definitely money to be made. And when there is money to be made I think it's a safe assumption that you will get BOTH higher quality products (like those ones you list - thanks for the shout out to Oathbound!) and a lot of junk cranked out for quick money/ambition-outreaching-skill/whatever. As what happened in 3.0, the higher quality products can even help pressure WotC to up their game as well, which benefits everyone.

With "OGL vs limited license", you still get the higher quality products, but apart from either costly WotC-reviewing or very high license fees, garbage will be reduced but not eliminated.

Either way, a clear license will lead to both better products and more junk.

(I'd happily put up with more junk if it meant more great products as well. Personally, my group somewhat prefers 5e over Pathfinder as a system, but we have a greater preference for the niche stuff. Without any 5e niche products, we are sticking with PF. 3pp licensing to cover some of our niche interests would convert us over really quick especially if it is of the range and quality as the products you list. A 5e OGL would have the bonus effect of allowing the pulling the best from 3.x/PF into 5e. I know the plural of anecdote isn't data, but at least this group isn't buying any 5e stuff entirely because of the minimal 3pp support.)

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think you both are probably right

Yeah, my point isn't that the OGL removes crap, merely that it pushes people to produce high-quality stuff. If there's no money to be made from supporting 5e, people will still make crap (crap gets made regardlesss!), but the only high-quality stuff that will be produced is WotC's own stuff (or the stuff from teams that can afford to hire lawyers, apparently!).

 

[Wicht]

Yeah, my point isn't that the OGL removes crap, merely that it pushes people to produce high-quality stuff. If there's no money to be made from supporting 5e, people will still make crap (crap gets made regardlesss!), but the only high-quality stuff that will be produced is WotC's own stuff (or the stuff from teams that can afford to hire lawyers, apparently!).

There is no sure fired way to prevent people from producing inferior products and trying to foist them off on others. Especially, as is often the case, when the ones producing the inferior products are actually quite enamored of their own work. It is what it is and has very little to do with the OGL, except and insofar as those enamored of their own work assume others will be as well, and will be enamored enough to pay for it. The solution to this is not to remove the OGL, but simply not pay for the inferior product.

And, as you say, while the OGL might increase the number of inferior products that actually see the light of day, it also, without a doubt increases the number of quality products. I suspect the actual ratio of good to bad remains relatively the same regardless.