So a player presents a character with really high ability scores--what do you do?

Altalazar said:
What you call "stacking the decks" I call creating a character. When you let the dice decide for you, letting "fate" decide, you are no longer the one creating the character. That is just some steps removed from just being handed a pre-made character from the DM. That would also be "playing the hand dealt to you" - and for some, that may be fine, but when I create a character, I'd rather take an active part in it rather than passively being given what a random number generator has decided what my character will be.

Of course you ARE creating the character. You're deciding how the character would react to various situations, you're deciding the character's motivations, you're deciding the character's personality. If you really want to say that rolling the stats is just some steps removed from playing a pre-made character from the DM, then using point buy to pick the stats is only ONE further step away... and a very minor step at that since a character is far more than just a collection of 6 stats.
 

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Luddite said:
When I first DM 3rd Ed, I had all my players roll in front of me. Not because I did not trust them, but I wanted to make sure that everyone had "similar" stats and would have the stats to make their characters viable.

Also at that time, I was still under the 2nd Ed notion of any thing less then a 17 in your primary stat (or 18/95 for fighter's strength) was useless. So I wanted to make sure every character had high enough stats to play the class they wanted.

However, it was not till later that I noticed that some characters were just not as effetive as others. Once I went back to the see how many points they were worth, there was a greater then 10 point difference between the Highest and the lowest.

As A DM, I would like to insure some type of "equality" between characters and players. That should be that every player has an equal chance of having fun and enoying the game.

-The Luddite

Yes - exactly - what matters most is the parity between characters in a party. With wide point-spreads, you will see huge differences in effectiveness, and this can cause problems. With anything but point buy, you can end up with this problem.
 

billd91 said:
Of course you ARE creating the character. You're deciding how the character would react to various situations, you're deciding the character's motivations, you're deciding the character's personality. If you really want to say that rolling the stats is just some steps removed from playing a pre-made character from the DM, then using point buy to pick the stats is only ONE further step away... and a very minor step at that since a character is far more than just a collection of 6 stats.

Stats are as integral a part of a character as their favorite color or their motivation for adventuring or their family background. More integral, actually, because stats are not something that can be changed while other personality traits can be. If you want to create a linguist - you need to give him a high int and language skills. If you roll randomly, you might end up too dumb to know ANY languages. So now you have a linguist who knows broken common and can't read or write. If you want to make a brute bully who bashes his way through life, but your stats give you a weakling, then again, you have lost your character concept. The character stats are VERY important and are very integral to who the character is. Are they smart, but lacking common sense? Can they talk their way out of situations or do they have to rely on their bashing? All of these things are part of the definition of character. I'd rather not leave them to random number generators.
 

Altalazar said:
Stats are as integral a part of a character as their favorite color or their motivation for adventuring or their family background. More integral, actually, because stats are not something that can be changed while other personality traits can be. If you want to create a linguist - you need to give him a high int and language skills. If you roll randomly, you might end up too dumb to know ANY languages. So now you have a linguist who knows broken common and can't read or write. If you want to make a brute bully who bashes his way through life, but your stats give you a weakling, then again, you have lost your character concept. The character stats are VERY important and are very integral to who the character is. Are they smart, but lacking common sense? Can they talk their way out of situations or do they have to rely on their bashing? All of these things are part of the definition of character. I'd rather not leave them to random number generators.

Boy are we seeing differences in approach, here. Many of us who like to roll the stats don't necessarily have a strongly preconceived notion of what it is we want to play. The stats, especially if they must be rolled in order, can help us to decide what might be interesting and send us down paths that we might not have anticipated. That's part of the fun of character generation when you roll. The difference in approach here is partly the difference between micromanaging character generation and making lemonade when life gives you lemons.

And even if you do have a preconceived notion, random stat generation may cause us to think about many different ways that we can accomplish our goals. For example, a successful linguist can be made with nothing more than an average intelligence since the Speak Language is cheap and there's no skill check to make. Take a few levels in Expert or Rogue and you'll have plenty of skill points to use to expand your language repertoire without assuming you need to have a high intelligence.

Your stats give you a physical weakling but you want to be a basher? Use your head when you bash. Open doors with a prybar (+2 on checks) , bluster and intimidate rather than actually physically confront, adjust your conception a little to be someone who's past his prime and, after going through a few bursts of activity, has to sit down for a rest.

And think of the fun you can have if your character thinks he's the most suave person (or at least wants to be) on the planet but everyone around him finds him kind of annoying. Sometimes the creative dissonance between what the initial character conception was and how the character comes out in play is a rewarding outcome.

And above all, realize that in 3rd edition D&D, stats are much more easily mutable than in previous editions with the clever use of level advancement stat bonuses and magic.
 

Dracolich said:
Most of the time it's the DM's who are doing most of the cheating during a game session anyway.
I fail to see why you are saying that at this particular moment. Could you elaborate a bit? :)
 

I normally use Point Buy, but if a player wants to roll, that's fine too -- it's 32 point buy, so I'm not really worried about a roller being too strong. They're all "too strong". :)

That being said, I require all rolls to happen while I watch. This isn't because I think my players are likely to cheat, it's because I don't want to have any reason to harbor doubts against them.

Finally, DMs can't cheat. We simply operate above the law.

-- N
 

On the list of reasons why I have my players roll stats in front of me "cheating" is pretty far down the list.

It's fun, there's little room for misunderstanding, I can be there to make sure stats and bonuses are entered correctly, give advice on character development, and many other things that have little to do with cheating.
 

billd91 said:
Boy are we seeing differences in approach, here. Many of us who like to roll the stats don't necessarily have a strongly preconceived notion of what it is we want to play. The stats, especially if they must be rolled in order, can help us to decide what might be interesting and send us down paths that we might not have anticipated. That's part of the fun of character generation when you roll. The difference in approach here is partly the difference between micromanaging character generation and making lemonade when life gives you lemons.

And even if you do have a preconceived notion, random stat generation may cause us to think about many different ways that we can accomplish our goals. For example, a successful linguist can be made with nothing more than an average intelligence since the Speak Language is cheap and there's no skill check to make. Take a few levels in Expert or Rogue and you'll have plenty of skill points to use to expand your language repertoire without assuming you need to have a high intelligence.

Your stats give you a physical weakling but you want to be a basher? Use your head when you bash. Open doors with a prybar (+2 on checks) , bluster and intimidate rather than actually physically confront, adjust your conception a little to be someone who's past his prime and, after going through a few bursts of activity, has to sit down for a rest.

And think of the fun you can have if your character thinks he's the most suave person (or at least wants to be) on the planet but everyone around him finds him kind of annoying. Sometimes the creative dissonance between what the initial character conception was and how the character comes out in play is a rewarding outcome.

And above all, realize that in 3rd edition D&D, stats are much more easily mutable than in previous editions with the clever use of level advancement stat bonuses and magic.

That's all well and good, but it isn't an approach I like to take because I define the character, I don't leave it to random number generators. If I think it is interesting to have a dumb linguist, I'll make one. I make my characters as CHARACTERS - long before I ever even look at the rules or stats. For me, character creation is translating the character into stats so I can "play" within the world of the game. There is still plenty of room for surprises - in the actual experiences of the game and the interactions with other players, with NPCs, and the world itself. Sort of like how novelists say that good characters "write themselves."

When you pair this with the fact that dice rolling can lead to horribly unbalanced parties, this leaves point buy as the only viable option for character creation.
 

I never require my players to roll anything in front of me. I think they would be insulted if I insisted they do. They are adults, and I don't need to make sure they didn't get an extra 4-8 extra points added in which would equate to a +1 to +2 on a die roll, or extra 10 hit points, or extra bonus spell, etc.

If a dm runs his game that way and his players dig his style more power to him. I wouldn't play in his game, but he isn't wrong for doing it. Its just how they run their game.However, its been my exp that prob relates to several other ways their game is run. I would prob not have fun in their game. I see stats as a tool that helps the game along, nothing more.

This comes down to the style of game you like to run (as a dm). I play to have fun, and present roleplay encounters, and intrigue/political challenges. My players have fun regardless if the fighter has a 14 str or an 18 str. So he gets an extra +2, it doesn't affect the game. I think the party is usually happy when the wiz has an 18 INT. It helps them in battles. I don't like restricted or conservative play, and neither do my players. To us its just not a big deal. I have three 17's! So what. If that guy goes down first in a fight, or can't do Cha based challenges, the party really gives him a hard time. Hey! What happened to Mr. 17's there? : ) I want them to run a character they are happy with, and one that suits their vision of who they are role playing. If one of my players honestly feels down becuase they can't run the character they want becuase one stat is too low for their vision (im not talking Hercules here either) then i tell them boost it up a couple points. If they are happy then the game is more enjoyable for everyone.

The hero PCs are supposed to be above the average Joe. They are the people who defy gods, save towns, and slay monsters yada yada yada. They should be special. After having a similar discussion on this topic one of my players rolled up "Above average Joe" that is his name, and he has all 12's. To top him his buddy rolled up his cousin "Underachiever Ed; all 9's" : ) The rest of the party were pretty much 12,12,14, three 16 or something close to it give or take a point. It didnt affect the game either. I have no idea how many hit points any of my players have. I don't keep track of the spells they cast to see if they slipped in a couple extra healing spells. (This sounds more like work than play) When i tell them you have taken X damage, they let me know "Well that does it for me im at negative X, or IM DEAD!". Its a small matter. The point is laughing and being creative and having fun.
 

Talath said:
I think the real question is: what would Hong do in a case like this?

In my opinion, he would probably make a reference to how badass his archer named Talath is and then end the post with his trademark Hong "something something something blah blah" Ooi

Did that answer your question?
My archer named Talath is so badass...

... he floats two inches off the ground.

... he once made a tyrannosaur's head explode.

... he doesn't shoot open locks, he blows up doors.

... he dispels mind control magic by shooting the guy.

... he got killed this one time in a fight, not once, but TWICE.


Hong "all true, I swear" Ooi
 
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