Actually, I thought that solos and elites had a bonus to hit, but I recently learned that was not the case. In the DMG, "creating monsters" section (p. 185), under creating new elites/solos, there is no mention of changing the to-hit. Of course, the designers haven't always followed their own rules in regards to monsters, so empirical data might show something different, but I didn't see any glaring differences between solos, elites and regular monsters when skimming the MM.
So, about defenses aka. PHB2 defenses feats
- Thread starter Bayuer
- Start date
No it isn't. The best you can do before racials is 16,16,13,11,10,8!DracoSuave said:
The final array will be 24/20/19 (before racial).
OMG! What a nonsense you are saying here. SOLOS don't have any bonus to attacks! Neither Elites! And you bonuses will be +7/+5/+4 from abiliti scores. Now if you will put here racial bonuses you can make it +7/+6/+5. With Demigod. +7/+7/+6, but this is so, so specific build. It is made to make NADs high, nothing else. Your to hit chance is lower than it should be. You don't have any other stats high! And you can manage this only at 30 level. At lower levels you will not have such a nice stats. Anyway your NADs will be 38, 38, 37. Average monster to hit on 30 lvl vs. NAD is... +33. 5 on die, 5 on die, 4 on die. WOW! When you AC is hitted on 9 (or 11 when you use plate and shiedl).DracoSuave said:
DracoSuave said:
Godforged Collosus is ELITE BRUTE! His average to hit vs. NAD is 2 lower than Skirmishers. And he is 29 level. On 30 level it will have +31 to hit vs. NAD (where +33 is average). Everything is ok here!
Earthrage Battlebriar is 28 lvl ELITE BRUTE! He have +30 vs. REF (trample; should be +29).
Atropal is 28 lvl ELITE BRUTE! +29 vs. REF (at 30 it will be +31).
All axamples you made was for Brutes whos NADs attacks are lowest in game. I can say now that you are not giving AND arguments here just trolling. What is sense of comparing 28 lvl brute with 30 lvl PC! Man.
Let's look at normal monsters in MM, shall we?
Ancient Red Dragon (Level 30 Solo Soldier) +35 vs. REF (to hit is exacly as it is stated ind DMG); +35 vs. REF (close blast 5!; +2 from average - should be +33 with multitarget power)
Now you gave us some evidences here! Alle PCs hitted on 3 (wit close blast 5) on die for... 4d12+10 dmg.
Tarrasque (Level 30 Solo Brute) +33 vs. REF (trample; +2 from average but it makes very little dmg)
All NADs hitted on 5, one one 4.
And this is why I think my calculations works fine. They are average! In middle. I don't need to make examples to prove them. As you can see it is easy to give brutes and say. Many your math is wrong. In respond you have soldier and wow! My math is even better than I was think...
Solos do not get a bonus to hit.
The reason the Red Dragon is +35 is because it is a Level +5 Soldier. 30+5=35.
So, I was off by 1. Big deal. 90% same level with no bonuses, no conditions, or higher level. It's only same level 95% if the PC is not completely balanced across defenses (which many PCs in actual games are).
Elites do not get a bonus to hit either.
Godforged Colosus, Earthrage Battlebriar and Atropal are Brutes. They are level +1 to hit. Brutes are the only monster that do not attack NADs reasonable well.
Nice skewing of data though. You compared level 28 and 29 Brutes (the weakest vs. NAD monsters) against the weak NAD of a level 30 PC.
No wonder you believe as you believe.
Yes, let's not make stuff up to support our POV.
DracoSuave
First Post
Please pay attention:
editted, damn I made a math error
Note. Balanced NADs. And they are balanced at the level of the highest NAD.
Argue that if you like, the proof is above.
'But you can't!'
But I did. Done. And in a way that is perfectly viable.
+7/+7/+6.
[/quote] Now if you will put here racial bonuses you can make it +7/+6/+5. With Demigod. +7/+7/+6, but this is so, so specific build.[/quote]
No, no Demigod necessary.
Putting a 16 in your primary stat, +2 from race = 18. So no. It is -exactly- where it should be.
Prove you need a 16 in your secondary at level 1 before racial adjustments. You can't. Because the effect is -secondary.- Abandon this dogma that your secondary must be tricked to the max. That is the -real- math problem here. You are pimping your offense at the expense of your defense.
Again, pay attention. +7/+7/+6 before racials and class.
And AC isn't hit on 9 if you're taking armor feats.
And comparing average hits of monsters' encounter powers is Fear and Loathing. They CANNOT HIT YOU EVERY ROUND WITH ENCOUNTER POWERS.
Well, find some level 30 non-solo monsters in the MM. Do it. YOU CANNOT.
Good point. I should use the normal soldiers at level 30. How many are there? Zero? Good point indeed.
Solos are not Normal monsters. They are solos. Who's making numbers here? And those are with encounter powers.
Well, show me the ability of those solos to hit your NADS every round at will. You can't. Because they don't have at-wills like that.
But that's okay. We can -pretend- their non-at-will powers are launched every round at will if it makes you happy.
I won't.
I don't dispute the idea that they included certain feats as math fixes to balance the NADs, not one bit. I call those math fixes 'Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes.' I suspect they originally planned for characters to balance out three attributes, not merely two. But char-op monkeys like to push their offense to the max, and so the 'max two atts' meme caught hold. Now, the result of that is you have one NAD that will always be a complete achilles heel. The cost of pure offense is a weakness.
But the thing is, you can remove that achilles heel without sacrificing your ability to hit. The only thing you sacrifice is your secondary effects. For a sorcerer, for example, do you -really- lose out by not going so heavily into only one of Strength or Dexterity? It's at most 2 points of damage at levels where your at-wills deal a minimum of 31 damage. A wizard's saves for one monster/encounter are at -9 rather than -11. An avenger deals 10 damage rather than 12 from his Censure.
It -truly- is NOT a huge difference, but the return is being able to bring up defense against -every- monster you fight until you get to that final battle against the really big bad who is five levels higher than you and will own you -anyways.-
You -can- balance your NADs out, and with negligible loss to your utility. In fact, your utility might increase because the -options- you gain for powers increase.
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Yes, you balanced your NADs.
And with racial ability scores adds, that could be +9/+8/+7 at level 28 and +9/+8/+9 with class bonuses.
So now, the weak NAD can get hit ~75% to ~85% of the time and the other two NADs can get hit ~70% to ~80% of the time after using two feats by same level foes at levels 29 and 30 and more often by higher level foes and/or foes that add conditions to the PCs.
One very specific build in order to get the weak NAD close to the stronger NADs and all three are now getting smacked the vast majority of the time instead of just one.
DracoSuave
First Post
Yes, you balanced your NADs.
And with racial ability scores adds, that could be +9/+8/+7 at level 28 and +9/+8/+9 with class bonuses.
Or +10/whatever/whatever.
Again, FAL. NAD-targetting at-wills don't exist for these level 30 monsters. If my guy gets auto-hit by a 1/encounter power, he can afford his auto-avoid for that same power.
The irony of this statement is that the primary stat is an 18 after racials. Short of putting a pre-racial 18 in that stat, you cannot get a higher contribution from your ability scores. Which means you're not gimping it... you're doing what you're expected to do. So, your primary is -exactly where it should be.- And your secondaries are -where your primary is.-
Compare the alternative: 16/16/12 which ends up with 24/24/14, or +7/+7/+2.
You've been complaining the problem is that the game requires you to take that +2. I've given you a solution that changes that +2 to a +6, without sacrificing either of the +7's. It's -really that simple.-
+7/+7/+6 vs +7/+7/+2.
So, what has been sacrificed, -exactly-?
This is a total copout on your part.
Solos have to face 5 PCs at once. They are a perfectly viable creature that gets faced and they have no extra bonus to hit vs. NADs.
They aren't somehow special.
You're not serious, are you?
About half of the solos in the MM have some form of At Will vs. NAD attack.
Beholders, Berbalang, Blue Dragons, Green Dragons, Gibbering Orb, Primordial Naga, Umber Hulks.
And there are other solos that have At Wills versus NADs under common circumstances like a foe is bloodied or a foe is attacking in melee.
And some of these At Will vs. NAD attacks are minor actions.
You really should do your homework before posting.
DracoSuave
First Post
There are two monsters at level 30. Red Dragon. Terrasque. I counted. Twice.
None of them have at-wills vs. Nads. I counted. Twice.
Half the Solos in the game aren't level 30. The other half are also not level 30.
In fact, there's a general trail off of monsters at higher levels, you'll notice.
But you haven't answered the main question.
What have you sacrificed in your defenses to get +7/+7/+6? Two feat slots. That's it.
None of them have at-wills vs. Nads. I counted. Twice.
Half the Solos in the game aren't level 30. The other half are also not level 30.
In fact, there's a general trail off of monsters at higher levels, you'll notice.
But you haven't answered the main question.
What have you sacrificed in your defenses to get +7/+7/+6? Two feat slots. That's it.
No?
Level 31 Nefermandias
Level 26 Rotvine Defiler
Level 27 Cindergrove Spirit
Level 26 Acerak has multiple
Level 31 Kyuss
Level 29 Osterneth has multiple
Level 35 Vecna
Level 25 Aspect of Vecna
Level 28 Dispater
Level 27 Ancient Green Dragon
Level 28 Ancient Blue Dragon
Level 28 Ancient Purple Dragon
Level 28 Soulgrinder
Level 29 Runescribed Dracolich (a ranged and melee at will interrupt when attacked)
You used two feats. Putting one of those in the best two NADs for 16/16/12 makes it:
+7/+7/+6 vs +9/+9/+2.
In order to gain in the weak NAD, at least one of the stronger NADs has to drop.
Math 101.
Something has to give in order to get balanced defenses.
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