So, about Expertise...

If either of these are true, it's still a crappily designed feat, since it reduces (reasonable) choice and distinction between characters.
In my mental model of "what's good game design", I don't judge the goal on its own, only if it was achieved. ;)

I'd call it a bad design goal instead.

Well, I am not sure yet. I am coming to think that the feats are okay because it will make some character choices more enjoyable - especially those that have to cover many different statistics or don't start with "optimal" starting options. Even if it improves those that already have good stats, you have to consider the "psychology" of success. It doesn't necessarily mean much to me that the Fighter is hitting 50 % more often then I do - it matters that my Star Pact Warlock only hits 40 % of the time without a way to boost my attacks.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I'm not buying the "there are other useful feats, so this feat is fine" argument. I don't think anybody is saying "you get expertise, you win D&D". Yes, there are plenty of feats that are useful, or character defining. But this feat can very easily create significant discrepency between characters who take it, and characters who don't.

One example is, take someone who wants to play a dwarf charisma paladin with a battleaxe, and they want a balanced spread of stats, starting with a 16 charisma. This character will have a +5 attack with his battleaxe, and does 1d10+5 damage. Now take a human fighter who polarized his stats for a 20 strength and took expertise and bastard sword. This fighter has a +10 attack, and does 1d10+5 damage.

Currently the paladin and fighter in my group have a difference of 3 points of attack bonus, and even that difference seems significant enough that the paladin considers the fighter to be the more important character for the group, and often refuses magic items and offers them to the fighter. I really don't want to deal with any feats that increase the gap, which will become even more significant at mid-paragon tier.

However the dwarf has apparently spent his dwarven weapon feat but not taken the best weapon option, while the human has spent both of his initial feats on weapon proficiency and weapon expertise. Having the fighter get "first dibs" on the magic items is a silly idea, at least as far as magic weaponry go since increasing the dwarves chances of hitting is a bigger boon to the party to making the fighter hit more frequently.

And, of course while the fighter hits more often, the fighter is going to likely have bad will (at least the person dominating him will know that he's going to hit te party ;)) and probably be a bit deficient in the reflex department as well. The dwarf paladin on the other hand will likely be quite solid defensively based on having even stats. Also, they'll be adding healing to the party. In a group with two defenders, it's ok for one to take more of a striker role, and the other a more leaderly roll. Also, unlike the fighter, the paladin's mark based interupt does not require an attack roll.

There is nothing to prevent the dwarven paladin from taking magical weapons, nothing that is preventing the dwarf from eventually taking weapon expertise (although he'd also need to take implement expertise for the implement based powers).

Ultimately in the extreme example, you have a paladin that hits a bit less than expected and a fighter that hits more than expected. The dwarf is probably 1 behind the baseline (18 stat and +2 weapon). The fighter meanwhile is way above the curve (+1 because of the prof, +1 from expertise, +1 for being a fighter, +1 for the 20 to STR). Unless the DM is upping the power of the monsters to challenge the fighter, the Paladin is only a bit behind in terms of "pulling his weight". The paladin isn't going to be missing most of the time, probably hitting at somewhere like a 12. However, the problem of having 16 in your attack stat in addition to a weapon with only a +2 prof existed before weapon expertise. However, because of weapon expertise, it is possible for that person to boost themselves if they find they aren't hitting often enough. It's possible to widen the gap and come up with extreme examples of where a power gaming munchkin and someone who isn't at all into optimizing their character are in the same part. However, one of the greatest features of D&D is the DM and other players at the table. They can see that there is an obvious difference in goals between these two player types, and resolve that.
 

It takes feats to do paragon multiclassing. That was the point, plain and simple. Smeelbo was saying that despite the fact he's never seen a paragon multiclass that he likes, even if there is one out there that he would like if he knew it, it's undeniable that paragon multiclassing uses up a lot of feats, i.e. is a feat sink.

It requires a lot of feats. However, if you are actually benefitting from all the feats (i.e. you actually use the retraining, you aren't taking it just so you can that the paragon), it's not a "sink". Sink implies your feats are being eaten or wasted. It does mean you have a hefty investment of feats in the heroic tier, however each of those feats does have a benefit on it's own.

You seem to lack the concept of "relative". The character with the 14 in his attack stat that takes expertise is still a crappy character.. relative to a guy with an 18 and the feat.

Of course, rarely is it player vs. player. Also 14 in attack stat is a bit of a strawman, you can easily have 5 14's with any race, and that involves putting very little into the stats you actually get as racial bonuses.

Ultimately though, what matters is PC compared to the monsters. If someone is hitting 40% and the other is hitting 60% that's one thing, someone is suboptimal and the other is above average. Now, if it was 50% vs. 70%, the relative difference is the same, but the other PC is pulling it's weight, even if they are still outshined by the first.

Crappy as in combat ineffective. The DM, in order to provide a challenge for the guy who made the obvious choices for combat effectiveness (the PHB tells you which races are good for which classes, and how to allocate your stats in order to function as these classes), will make the game too hard for the character with the crappy attack stat. If the crappy stat guy can take the feat, then the good stat guy can, and the problem remains.

This assumes that the DM ignores the combat ineffective player completely in designing encounters, only concerning himself with "challenging the best guy in the party". After doing nothing about the PC choosing to have 14 to his attack stat, he then designs encounters to challenge the individual and not the party.

If they both take the feat, they both get better at hitting. If the DM immediately increases the monsters defences by an ammount equal to the feats bonus ... then he's just making the feat completely useless (or absolutely necessary since he's punishing everyone that didn't take the feat because one player did take it).

There are also other ways the DM can help to balance things out, such as giving the suboptimal player the higher level items (namely the 6/11/16, etc items that are the "first" to get the additional +1 to hit).

Ultimately, if the DM designs encounters so that the person with the best chance of hitting has a 50% of hitting ... they may have a problem. Of course the bigger problem could be one where the people playing in the game seemingly have different goals and aren't really communicating.
 

What? That's stupid! That will only increase the gap between the two even more!
The fighter should be the one giving magic items to the paladin, them keep them both useful and balanced

So when the zombie apocalypse comes, you'd recommend giving the shotgun to the cheerleader instead of the marine? (Note: The cheerleader's name is not Buffy.)
 

It requires a lot of feats. However, if you are actually benefitting from all the feats (i.e. you actually use the retraining, you aren't taking it just so you can that the paragon), it's not a "sink". Sink implies your feats are being eaten or wasted. It does mean you have a hefty investment of feats in the heroic tier, however each of those feats does have a benefit on it's own.

I'm not arguing this anymore. That isn't what Smeelbo meant, as far as I can tell. Believe what you want to believe.


Of course, rarely is it player vs. player. Also 14 in attack stat is a bit of a strawman, you can easily have 5 14's with any race, and that involves putting very little into the stats you actually get as racial bonuses.

16 vs 20 is just as bad as 14 vs 18. Some people think anything less than 20 is subpar. I think 20 is too much to spend for most concepts.


Ultimately though, what matters is PC compared to the monsters. If someone is hitting 40% and the other is hitting 60% that's one thing, someone is suboptimal and the other is above average. Now, if it was 50% vs. 70%, the relative difference is the same, but the other PC is pulling it's weight, even if they are still outshined by the first.

You're not understanding what relative means. How is 40% hit rate failing, but 50% hit rate pulling your weight, if default sort of optimal character is 50 or 60%?


This assumes that the DM ignores the combat ineffective player completely in designing encounters, only concerning himself with "challenging the best guy in the party". After doing nothing about the PC choosing to have 14 to his attack stat, he then designs encounters to challenge the individual and not the party.

If they both take the feat, they both get better at hitting. If the DM immediately increases the monsters defences by an ammount equal to the feats bonus ... then he's just making the feat completely useless (or absolutely necessary since he's punishing everyone that didn't take the feat because one player did take it).

There are also other ways the DM can help to balance things out, such as giving the suboptimal player the higher level items (namely the 6/11/16, etc items that are the "first" to get the additional +1 to hit).

Ultimately, if the DM designs encounters so that the person with the best chance of hitting has a 50% of hitting ... they may have a problem. Of course the bigger problem could be one where the people playing in the game seemingly have different goals and aren't really communicating.

Your argument is flawed. You basically state that it is OK to have major discrepancies in power among the players, as long as the DM compensates by giving better gear to the crappier designed characters. How is that fair to the player of the better character? Acquisition of treasure is a longstanding goal of DnD adventurers.

A DM should design encounters to be challenging to the whole party, and if there is a situation where a challenge to the whole party is actually easy for one character's part but annoyingly difficult for another, then there is something wrong with the game.

The point is that this feat does not improve the game. If it was meant to fix the discrepancy between player attack bonuses and monster defenses as you level up, then the implementation is flawed. A better method would be to errata the level up chart in the PhB.

It was obviously not meant to bring poorly designed characters up to par with the better ones, as feats aren't really that scarce and the better designed characters can take these feats too.
 

More equivalents (this is fun):

Attack Focus
Choose one of melee, ranged, close, or area. You deal +3 damage with attacks of the appropriate type.
This bonus increases to +6 at Paragon and +9 at Epic.
 

You seem to lack the concept of "relative". The character with the 14 in his attack stat that takes expertise is still a crappy character.. relative to a guy with an 18 and the feat. Crappy as in combat ineffective. The DM, in order to provide a challenge for the guy who made the obvious choices for combat effectiveness (the PHB tells you which races are good for which classes, and how to allocate your stats in order to function as these classes), will make the game too hard for the character with the crappy attack stat.

This is so less of an issue in 4th edition than it is in previous editions. In 4e you design encounters for the group. Even if one guy totally optimized, has a single attack stat build with a 18-20 (at level 1) and took expertise, and another person made a crappy character, the DM can concentrate on challenging the party and it'll work for everyone. 3.x definitely had some problems where one character could be so amazing and another so terrible that you couldn't challenge one withou killing the others. With the advent of roles and the inability for a party to function as a bunch of individuals who don't work together, 4e has pretty much solved this problem.

If the crappy stat guy can take the feat, then the good stat guy can, and the problem remains.

Problem? It's a +1! Let's take a typical rogue. We'll say 18 dex, using a dagger. That's +8 to hit at level 1. What does it matter if it's +9? What does it break? Let's compare that to a sub-optimal guy with 14 in his primary attack stat. With expertise and a +3 weapon, that's a +6 to hit at level 1. +7 if it's a dagger wielding rogue or a weapon talent fighter. People are more than happy with a +6 to hit at level 1 right now. This feat becomes available and suddenly it's bad? Or becomes worse because the rogue goes up to a +9 or +10?

This idea of not being able to challenge an optimized character without overwhelming an unoptimized one is outmoded thinking.

The problem here is that it fails ME. I don't want to take the same feat with every character I make, because it is such a good feat that I'd be severely limiting myself if I don't take it.

PHB2 isn't out yet. Technically, the feat isn't available right now. Are your games sucking without it? Are your characters sucking without it? If everything is working without it, perhaps it's not as much of an auto-include as everyone makes it out to be. Are you feeling "severly limited" right now because you're not taking it?

In fact, unless I desperately need an armor feat because I start with cloth or need to move up to heavy armor because my build lacks an AC stat, I'll probably take expertise at first level with 80%+ of my future characters. I'm basically saying here that the only thing better than +1 to hit, is +2 or more to AC.

Unless you've got a DM who loves monsters with high defenses, I think you'll be wasting a feat at level 1. When I think of the various builds that interest me, they're all way, way too different for me to say that 80% of them will do X. I can give you lots of examples where I definitely won't be taking expertise at level 1. My assessment of expertise is that I can see myself taking it with most builds by level 15 or level 25. As I've said before, something I take more than half way through a characters advancement cycle is hardly the best thing ever.

And NO ONE should fool themselves into thinking DnD was ever a game that wasn't about killing things and taking their stuff. There are few things other than combat I need rules about in an RPG. Most of the rules are for combat, most of the feats too, and most of the feats and powers you choose are going to be for combat.

Absolutely. As I said in a previous post, D&D is about combat. That doesn't mean the only way to play it is to min-max your characters for combat effectiveness. Or that if you don't, you're somehow playing the game wrong.
 

16 vs 20 is just as bad as 14 vs 18. Some people think anything less than 20 is subpar. I think 20 is too much to spend for most concepts.

While the difference between 16/20 is the same as 14/18, the difference is that someone with 20 in an attack stat is going to have significant flaws, and someone with a 14 in their attack stat isn't even trying to be significant. With a 16, a player can take steps to increase their accuracy, like taking a weapon with bonus to proficiency.

The problem comes when you have someone with a 16 that also has a class and weapon choice that do nothing to improve the situation compared to someone that has not only went with a 20, but taken every other option to maximize their attack bonuses, including taking fighter (or rogue), and wielding a +3 prof item (or dagger in the rogue's case).

However, without taking a 16 vs. 20 and adding elements onto it to make the gap wider, the difference is +2. Combat advantage, cover, marking, etc ... +2 is a swing number that is acceptable in game.

You're not understanding what relative means. How is 40% hit rate failing, but 50% hit rate pulling your weight, if default sort of optimal character is 50 or 60%?

If the default for an optimal character is 50% than 50% is going to be pulling your weight.

I understand what relative means. I was pointing out that while there is the same gap between say a character with 25 and 50% hit chances vs. 50 and 75% hit chances, in the latter case both players will be contributing in combat, while in the first case, the person with only 1/4 hit chance is going to be a liability.

Being better than average at hitting isn't anywhere as disruptive as a character that doesn't hit often enough.

Your argument is flawed. You basically state that it is OK to have major discrepancies in power among the players, as long as the DM compensates by giving better gear to the crappier designed characters. How is that fair to the player of the better character? Acquisition of treasure is a longstanding goal of DnD adventurers.

Not necessarily. The "bad" PC is the first person to get a level 6 item. However, the "good" PC will be the first one getting items like the level 10 item, the "best" of the +2 items. Each player trades off being the "best" item. The "bad" player is rewarded with items that directly improve his characters ability relative to the party, while the well built character gets the high level item that applies the same bonus, but has better secondary characteristics. Not to mention this is ONLY the weapon being talked about. It's possible the optimized attacker is in more need of having his defenses boosted ASAP.

Treasure packages are designed so that a party of 5 will get 4 magic items, plus enough gold to buy another one at each level. A "fair" group will rotate who gets the best item at each level. In this system, the optimized player would be getting the best weapon at level 1 (thus a level 5, top of the line +1 item), and the unoptimized player would get the best weapon at level 2 (thus a level 6, bottom of the line +2 item), and so forth.

A DM should design encounters to be challenging to the whole party, and if there is a situation where a challenge to the whole party is actually easy for one character's part but annoyingly difficult for another, then there is something wrong with the game.

First of all, they apparently aren't playing 4e anymore as the challenge isn't just whether or not you hit the monsters. There are monsters that have Reflexes or Fortitude as good as, if not better than, their AC. So, even though by the "math" the wizard and fighter are equally optimized, suddenly the fighter is doing better. Then there are Soldiers, where suddenly people targeting the NADs are doing better.

For leaders and defenders, there are secondary goals that aren't entirely focused on hitting attacks. Even for a rogue who has ridiculous accuracy, hitting on high numbers (targetting NAD with a dagger and combat advantage, etc, etc, etc) still has to get combat advantage in the first place.

I'm not saying that this means it's less important if you hit or not, but that there are ways of challenging the group other than "make sure the best person in the party has a tough time hitting them, regardless of what the rest of the party looks like".

Also, a monster that has defences which "challenge" the uber-optimized player may not have attacks that are challenging to the party ... in fact that character may be hitting the party very frequently. On the other hand, a monster that isn't too hard to hit for the non-optimized character may be able to hit the PCs rarely. There is more that goes into an encounter than just "how often do the PCs hit?". And one PC hitting often does not necessarily make the encounter easy for them ... if they get beat up by the monsters, there is only so much that hitting back will help them.

The point is that this feat does not improve the game. If it was meant to fix the discrepancy between player attack bonuses and monster defenses as you level up, then the implementation is flawed. A better method would be to errata the level up chart in the PhB.

Errata the level up chart to have an arbitrary bonus that is different than anything else they have. Magic items are part of the math as well, and while they do have a level associated with them, the timing of when you get the magic items doesn't have them magically show up at exact points in time. Attaching it to a feat gives players the option of when they wish to get it. Do they want it before level 5 or after. And of course, do they want to take both weapon and implement expertise, or focus their powers on weapons exclusively and take the hit on any implement power they do use, etc. There are options associated with the feat. While it's unlikely anyone would not have it by 15th level, there are still a lot of levels before that where it may or may not be taken.

One of the problems is the person it will benefit least is also the person most likely to take it, and vice versa. Someone that is already squeezing every bonus to attack rolls as he can find is more likely to take it than someone that didn't concern themselves with maximum optimization, when the lower your initial accuracy is, the more helpful the feat is. Still, the person with the unoptimized character benefits from the feat more than the optimizer does unless the DM decides that the feat is pure powercreep and decides that instead of banning it, he'll up the monsters by an appropriate ammount, which forces everyone to take the feat in order to keep things "as they were".

It was obviously not meant to bring poorly designed characters up to par with the better ones, as feats aren't really that scarce and the better designed characters can take these feats too.

Feats aren't really that scarce, but they are scarce enough for people to complain about feat taxes.

And, while better designed characters can take these feats just like anyone else can, the difference between 50 and 55% is bigger than the difference between 60 and 65%. This feat does nothing to the defences of the PCs. So, monsters that are balanced against the party's defenses are easier to hit by everyone, and a character that is well balanced defensively is able to improve it's suboptimal attack abilities so that it's able to hit often enough to contribute in combat. It also means that someone that has optimized their ability to hit in combat is even better at it.

EDIT: Since the DM is balancing encounters based on how well the party does, it would be in the optimizers best interest to let the rest of the party "catch up". By making himself better, he has a marginal bonus (if any) as the encounters become harder, and ends up making it harder for the rest of the party that he is relying on. If anything he'd "slow down" so they "catch up" a bit and reduce the relativity so he's not the one doing all the work. Also if the entire party decided not to take the feat than the DM would be changing the encounters accordingly ... so based on the whole relativity thing ... the feat is only mandatory if everyone else is taking it and upping the ante of the encounters as a result.
 
Last edited:

It's probably worth note that a lot of DMs don't do a ton of changes to encounter difficulties based on their parties. They run their module or their thrown together encounters and don't necessarily worry that person A missed 2/3 of the time, or whatever. In fact, in a party of 6 if 3 are contributing exceptionally and 3 are not contributing very well, they might not care at all because the party is still getting through the challenges fine.

This is especially true in a campaign like Living Forgotten Realms... since I'm the primary DM for our home games, my play opportunities are pretty much LFR and pity games by one of my players where he runs level-appropriate mods. He doesn't make any changes, at all, so they'll either be too easy or too hard, or we'll have some people far behind or far ahead, as falls.

Sad, but true.
 

2. Not everyone takes it for the same weapon group or implement.
3. Not everyone takes it for only ONE weapon group or implement.

This makes the house-rule of "everyone gets one Weapon Expertise or Implement Expertise for free" very intriguing.

Concept-based role-players would pick the weapon or implement based on their concept. Power-gamers would pick the weapon or implement that statistical analysis shows most benefits from a +1 to attack. The characters would be different yet equally powerful (at least with regards to attack bonus), without having to delay the acquisition of a more interesting feat. And players who want to be versatile can still spend feat slots to get more Expertise. I like it!

Problem solved, at least at my table.

-- 77IM
 

Remove ads

Top