And to me, it's another flavor sacrifice 4Ed made at the altar of balance.
So, Dark Sun: It's officially out. What do you think of it?
- Thread starter Wik
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And to me, it's another flavor sacrifice 4Ed made at the altar of balance.
Which is a good thing. Flavor shouldn't dictate rules, rules should be dictated by the system and then things fit around that. While wielding 4 weapons is fluffy, it's horrifically overpowering and directly breaks the way the game works. As it is, you can already get a LOT of use out of the other two arms as a Thri-kreen, particularly Brawler fighters who are flat out superior to a non-Thri-kreen brawler fighter (due to always having a hand free for grabs due to the lower arms).
Not to mention they can rapidly change to a ranged weapon/melee weapon as the need arises right out of the gate. Making them extremely flexible. It is a good, balanced addition that fits with everything else in the game and doesn't break it. That's good design. Bad design is throwing all manner of crap at a wall, hoping it sticks and somehow balances out.
Because it doesn't.
In your opinion, perhaps, but the sentiment is clearly not universal.
IMHO, a single race with extra usable limbs- correctly done- would not move 4Ed into RIFTS territory.
But they did do it correctly, that's the problem with your argument in a nutshell. You just want to have something that is completely overpowered. What they did do is both fluffy and not overpowered. That's really the core point of the matter.
I disagree. A bald assertion of your opinion that they did it correctly does not make it so.
The secondary arms could have been capable of wielding weapons without being overpowered.
Treating them as size Small too much for you? What about not being able to single-handedly wield anything heavier than 1-2lbs with those secondary hands, and having to use both of them for any single-handed weapon that is heavier (with no damage boost)? That would eliminate them getting any real huge boost in damage potential.
And that way, you could have a Thri-Kreen such as depicted on the cover of the freakin' book! (I really hate bait and switch.)
The official 4Ed version of Thri-Kreen? Blech.
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So are your assertions they changed things that didn't need to be changed. Funny how it works like that isn't it?
Nope.
Yep.
Alternatively, they can hold any weapon you want and have a free action to quickly change one weapon to the main hands that can when and if required. Allowing a total of almost 3 different weapons to be held at once and rapidly switched if the situation ever called for it.
I mean that is totally what I would - oh wait. That's what wizards did!
There are lots of problems with the term "wield" that you seem unaware of. For example, you do not actually ATTACK with your other weapon. You WIELD it for benefits that require that, but without needing to ever use it and so that is what causes the problem that just being able to hold the weapon avoids. Qualifying for feats that need you to wield a second weapon and wearing a shield for example at the same time. The damage of the second weapon is irrelevant, because you're taking items and feats that all add damage to your *main* weapon AND having a more defensive advantage like a shield in your other hand. For example, you could take a two handed weapon, hold a dagger and then take the two weapon fighting feats. You never use the dagger, it's an irrelevant thing but due to giving it the magic "wield" it opens up a whole lot of stuff that two-hander couldn't get.
That's why you don't let them do it.
Your version of the Thri-Kreen? Absolutely awful.
On the other hand I find the 4E one an interesting, very good and balanced addition to the game. I think they handled the multiple arms extremely well when it could have been utterly awful.
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pawsplay
Hero
I had some more thoughts on the Eladrin, and I have to say, I think it would have made a lot more sense to make the Eladrin the one race with an surviving preserver tradition. They could still be wizards, it would add to their secrecy, and it would offer a rationale for their veiled agents abroad (keeping tabs on the dragon kings and questing for the Avengion, of course).
I guess on the positive side, an Eladrin Battlemind offers a reason to break out the old Dark Traveler miniature.
But seriously. Psionic fey spies who hate wizards? Just doesn't really work for me.
On the thri-kreen issue above... What bothers me about the (IMO unnecessary) change to thri-keen concerning arms is that they could have left the abilities essentially the same and offer a free handle action or two per turn to cover having multiple arms. Then you just throw in some encounter powers that allow you to wield and attack with extra weapons. Ta-da. See? I could be a 4e designer.
Seriously, 4e is abstract enough that the mechanics could have been bent to match the fluff. Weak, noncombat extra arms are the opposite of awesome.
I guess on the positive side, an Eladrin Battlemind offers a reason to break out the old Dark Traveler miniature.
But seriously. Psionic fey spies who hate wizards? Just doesn't really work for me.
On the thri-kreen issue above... What bothers me about the (IMO unnecessary) change to thri-keen concerning arms is that they could have left the abilities essentially the same and offer a free handle action or two per turn to cover having multiple arms. Then you just throw in some encounter powers that allow you to wield and attack with extra weapons. Ta-da. See? I could be a 4e designer.
Seriously, 4e is abstract enough that the mechanics could have been bent to match the fluff. Weak, noncombat extra arms are the opposite of awesome.
Obryn
Hero
Sure! And mechanically? That's almost indistinguishable from what happens.
Your way: Kreen is wielding a bow and an axe. He evidently shot the bow on his last turn, and is watching for someone to provoke an OA with the axe.
Official way: Kreen is wielding a bow, with an axe in his weaker hands. If someone provokes an OA from him, he can swap weapons as a free action on the provoker's turn, and make that OA.
I think the limitation is there because there are quite a few weapons and implements which give bonuses from just "wielding" them. If they have two extra wielding hands, the bonuses could stack up - shield bonuses from some weapons, curse effects from some rods, etc.
-O
darjr
I crit!
I think the cover fits. Just because the arms are not strong enough to wield a weapon doesn't mean it isn't strong enough to carry that weapon. But if you don't like it, you don't like it.
The pregen does have a 'Thri-Kreen Claws' power that I think could be the smaller hands making an attack as well as the feet or main hands. Not a weapon power, I think, but cool.
I liked what I saw on the pregen, the natural jumper and minor shift just seemed to add to the bug twitteryness. Oh, stags grace gave me a vision of a weird mantis like head swiveling around to keep an eye on one enemy like her head was on a gyroscope.
The pregen does have a 'Thri-Kreen Claws' power that I think could be the smaller hands making an attack as well as the feet or main hands. Not a weapon power, I think, but cool.
I liked what I saw on the pregen, the natural jumper and minor shift just seemed to add to the bug twitteryness. Oh, stags grace gave me a vision of a weird mantis like head swiveling around to keep an eye on one enemy like her head was on a gyroscope.
Gloomshroud
First Post
I actually emailed them on this one. They said that I could return it for a full refund if I wished. Fair enough. I'll deal with the errors.
Just to toss in my two bits, I've been a big fan of DS since I started playing many years ago. Yes, I feel that this incarnation of it has its problems, but 2nd Edition did too. Point is, it's Dark Sun: Nuff Said
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