-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
So, Dark Sun: It's officially out. What do you think of it?
- Thread starter Wik
- Start date
This incarnation of DS - as explained by WotC earlier and actually done so in the book - starts when Kalak is defeated and the rest of the history is up to the DM's. Even back in 2e, I disliked the word that the Prism pendant turned DS into.
As previously said, the artwork are crap. Not by themselves, but they do not have DS feel to them.
As previously said, the artwork are crap. Not by themselves, but they do not have DS feel to them.
Scribble
First Post
Just out of curiosity- is it that the art doesn't feel like it represents the world described in the book... Or that it isn't like the art of Brom... Or something else?
Wik
First Post
Well, for me, it's that the art is too much like other D&D art - really, it's art that is inspired by action movies, as opposed to being inspired by, say, westerns.
There is also a fair share of recycled art. And art that, while it was made for this book, you can tell was produced so that some point in the future it could be recycled in a non DS book.
There is too much art consisting of people doing random things, and not enough art of say, people in wastelands.
Much of the items and armour depicted in the books are not crazy mish-mashings of non-metallic materials, but instead look exactly like the armours and weapons in "core" 4e, only with a different colour.
And the art is not grim. It's heroic, in the same way the normal D&D art is heroic.
My two cents, at least. But then, feel free to ignore me. I've said it in other threads, too - I'm not a fan of wotc art to begin with, so the fact that I don't like the art here is no surprise.
Bagpuss
Legend
There isn't a united feel to the art, in virtually all the illustrations it is a single character without any (or at least very minimal) background so they don't feel placed in the setting. Actually you really get no idea what the setting looks like. For all you know Athas could be a water world, if it wasn't for a few illustrations in the Atlas chapter towards the back.
This is made worse by the items and clothing of some of the characters. The Arms-Troubadour (pg 40) metal rapier, metal ringed armour. Gladiator (pg 50) metal helm, greaves, and what is meant to be a Tortoise blade, looks to be a metal shield with metal blade, still her other sword looks better. Mind General (pg 56) metal longsword, and a few others look like they could be from any D&D setting.
The quality of art work is pretty good on the whole however, it's just it doesn't really tell you anything about the setting a lot of the time.
Scribble
First Post
I would say I get the feeling they commissioned some art specifically for the setting, then supplemented that with other art they had that felt "close enough."
As for the character close ups... Yeah I agree- it's what I think I find most disappointing about WoTC art in general; no (or every limited) backgrounds.
Backgrounds always make my mind wander, and seem to give the characters a sense of purpose other then posing (at least to me.) I think thats why I always liked Elmore- his backgrounds were often more striking then the characters in them, and always had a way of making me feel like I was there.
Wik
First Post
Fair enough. Just figured I'd give my perspective on it, and also explain where I'm coming from. But yeah, personally, I would say the art is the worst part of the book. And this is coming from someone who never really liked the original DS art particularly much, either (Brom be damned).
pawsplay
Hero
I looked this over in the store. I was never a huge Dark Sun person, but it was really cool and different and tapped into that real swords-and-sorcery vibe and I think as a setting it deserves respect. I think the 4e version shows that respect, but they aren't afraid to change things, and I think a newcomer would have an easier time digesting the setting than someone who knows the origional.
* Picky details to fret over: Avengions and Dragon Kings are purely arcane now, not the union of psionic and arcane ability they were. Half-giants now look like goliaths (i.e. Vin Diesel) when some simple directions to the art team could have made them more giant-like. Muls and dwarves have been excised of anything that might offend the delicate sensibilities of Hooters patrons.
*Hambone connected to the shoehorn: Eladrin as a hidden race of psis who hate arcane casters? I don't quite get it. And tieflings seem like they just wandered off a spelljamming ship after getting drunk and lost on their way to another setting.
* Themes are very cool. If something like that had been introduced early on, I might have been more tempted to actually give 4e a try. I'm a sucker for layers; enough flavor can make anything edible.
* On the other hand: Trh-kreen with their encounter powers for their claws and the ability to drag opponents around several squares kind of embody everything about 4e that does not overlap with my personal vision of what D&D looks like. I can sort of dig that "I have claws" might not be a meanginful distinction in many game systems, but I've never really been able to handle that in a D&D type setting where claws are so frickin' boss for most monsters. Too much GURPS as a wee lad, I suppose.
* Picky details to fret over: Avengions and Dragon Kings are purely arcane now, not the union of psionic and arcane ability they were. Half-giants now look like goliaths (i.e. Vin Diesel) when some simple directions to the art team could have made them more giant-like. Muls and dwarves have been excised of anything that might offend the delicate sensibilities of Hooters patrons.
*Hambone connected to the shoehorn: Eladrin as a hidden race of psis who hate arcane casters? I don't quite get it. And tieflings seem like they just wandered off a spelljamming ship after getting drunk and lost on their way to another setting.
* Themes are very cool. If something like that had been introduced early on, I might have been more tempted to actually give 4e a try. I'm a sucker for layers; enough flavor can make anything edible.
* On the other hand: Trh-kreen with their encounter powers for their claws and the ability to drag opponents around several squares kind of embody everything about 4e that does not overlap with my personal vision of what D&D looks like. I can sort of dig that "I have claws" might not be a meanginful distinction in many game systems, but I've never really been able to handle that in a D&D type setting where claws are so frickin' boss for most monsters. Too much GURPS as a wee lad, I suppose.
giant.robot
Adventurer
I have been a Dark Sun fan since the 2E era. It was an interesting departure from the sword and sorcery fantasy, more John Carter of Mars than Lord of the Rings. It really let me rethink how to play the game since the things I was familiar with no longer behaved the same way.
For the most part I think the 4E version is pretty good and I've really enjoyed playing the D&D Encounters running it. It maintains a lot of the harshness and brutality of the original but I think still manages to stay pretty balanced. I liked that they use character themes instead of new classes to represent the Dark Sun specific classes like Gladiator and Templar. I've seen people talking about power creep with themes but Dark Sun used to recommend (if not require) players start with level 3 characters. Themes help bring first level characters up to a point where they can reasonably survive encounters. In terms of gameplay I'm really happy with the Dark Sun books.
Now to my gripes since they're a bit more specific than my praises and have more to do with the presentation than the gameplay elements.
I completely agree with everyone else about the generic artwork. While the original Dark Sun was defined in part by Brom's artwork I don't expect WotC to just dust off old pieces and reprint them. Nor do I expect them to tell their current artists to simply copy Brom's work. That being said I find the current artwork to be not only uninspiring but a bad fit for the setting. As others have mentioned much of the art doesn't correspond to the copy or even the general description of the setting. Folks are running around in generic fight scenes bedecked in metal gear. Even the black and white line art in the original books did a better job setting the scene than the fully color photographic art in the new book.
Besides the art just being bad it also doesn't help you visualize the world. If you look at Brom's cover artwork for the Prism Pentad novels not only do they show some crazy characters but some really detailed background scenes. A cursory look at those covers alone help you get a good visualization of the Dark Sun setting. Even the few bits of art in Dungeon and Dragon magazines for their 3E Dark Sun conversion are more effective than most of the art in the new book. I hate to harp so much on the artwork but it's the book(s) major downside. I don't think players completely new to the Dark Sun setting will have as good of a handle on the game world as people who are familiar with the 2E version.
Besides the artwork I am really disappointed WotC didn't do three Dark Sun books. I think they really good have used a Campaign Setting, a Player's Guide, and the Creature Catalogue. I think they did a pretty good job of squeezing roughly ten splat books worth of setting materials from 2E into the hundred or so pages they had available in the Campaign Setting. Had they put the new races, powers, and themes into a Player's Guide they would have had a lot more room in the Campaign Setting for more artwork to match the copy even if it wasn't as good as what was in the old books. They wouldh ave also had more room in a dedicated Player's Guide to give a lot more guidance to players on how Dark Sun characters would play differently from their counterparts in other settings. I think the FR and Eberron books should have been the model used for Dark Sun.
Overall I'm glad my peeves with Dark Sun turned out to be with the presentation rather than the gameplay or fluff. I was not really happy with how 4E Forgotten Realms turned out ("everyone is dead LOL, except Elminster") so I was skeptical about Dark Sun. I enjoyed the setting in the 2E days and wanted a 4E version to be good. I want new players to get the same enjoyment out of the setting as I did when I first played it. Dark Sun being good gives me a lot of hope for the Ravenloft Campaign Setting coming next year. Dark Sun coincided with the PHB3 and psionic characters (which are integral to the setting) while Ravenloft will coincide with the Heroes of Shadow book and the Shadowfell boxed set.
For the most part I think the 4E version is pretty good and I've really enjoyed playing the D&D Encounters running it. It maintains a lot of the harshness and brutality of the original but I think still manages to stay pretty balanced. I liked that they use character themes instead of new classes to represent the Dark Sun specific classes like Gladiator and Templar. I've seen people talking about power creep with themes but Dark Sun used to recommend (if not require) players start with level 3 characters. Themes help bring first level characters up to a point where they can reasonably survive encounters. In terms of gameplay I'm really happy with the Dark Sun books.
Now to my gripes since they're a bit more specific than my praises and have more to do with the presentation than the gameplay elements.
I completely agree with everyone else about the generic artwork. While the original Dark Sun was defined in part by Brom's artwork I don't expect WotC to just dust off old pieces and reprint them. Nor do I expect them to tell their current artists to simply copy Brom's work. That being said I find the current artwork to be not only uninspiring but a bad fit for the setting. As others have mentioned much of the art doesn't correspond to the copy or even the general description of the setting. Folks are running around in generic fight scenes bedecked in metal gear. Even the black and white line art in the original books did a better job setting the scene than the fully color photographic art in the new book.
Besides the art just being bad it also doesn't help you visualize the world. If you look at Brom's cover artwork for the Prism Pentad novels not only do they show some crazy characters but some really detailed background scenes. A cursory look at those covers alone help you get a good visualization of the Dark Sun setting. Even the few bits of art in Dungeon and Dragon magazines for their 3E Dark Sun conversion are more effective than most of the art in the new book. I hate to harp so much on the artwork but it's the book(s) major downside. I don't think players completely new to the Dark Sun setting will have as good of a handle on the game world as people who are familiar with the 2E version.
Besides the artwork I am really disappointed WotC didn't do three Dark Sun books. I think they really good have used a Campaign Setting, a Player's Guide, and the Creature Catalogue. I think they did a pretty good job of squeezing roughly ten splat books worth of setting materials from 2E into the hundred or so pages they had available in the Campaign Setting. Had they put the new races, powers, and themes into a Player's Guide they would have had a lot more room in the Campaign Setting for more artwork to match the copy even if it wasn't as good as what was in the old books. They wouldh ave also had more room in a dedicated Player's Guide to give a lot more guidance to players on how Dark Sun characters would play differently from their counterparts in other settings. I think the FR and Eberron books should have been the model used for Dark Sun.
Overall I'm glad my peeves with Dark Sun turned out to be with the presentation rather than the gameplay or fluff. I was not really happy with how 4E Forgotten Realms turned out ("everyone is dead LOL, except Elminster") so I was skeptical about Dark Sun. I enjoyed the setting in the 2E days and wanted a 4E version to be good. I want new players to get the same enjoyment out of the setting as I did when I first played it. Dark Sun being good gives me a lot of hope for the Ravenloft Campaign Setting coming next year. Dark Sun coincided with the PHB3 and psionic characters (which are integral to the setting) while Ravenloft will coincide with the Heroes of Shadow book and the Shadowfell boxed set.
Similar Threads
- Poll
