So, eladrin's can teleport around? ..nail...coffin...rogue already obsolete?

[Ahglock]

I disagree with the OP. But if this is going to be the thinking then WotC should stop right this instant showing ANYTHING at all. By the same reasoning that you can't be critical of something because you don't know enough, then you also can't be supportive of something because you don't know enough. So if you like 4E based on what you have seen, but also agree with this statement, then you are missing something.

If they want to show more or stop showing altogether, either case is fine by me. But don't expect people to not react to things they have been shown in the context that has been provided.

Exactly.

A lot of these posts basically are saying if you don't like what you heard about 4e shut up.

Um yeah sure people are making assumptions and that is on both sides. Its not particularly constructive to say, hey you have no evidence 4e is going to be bad/good so don't say anything at all. People are going to say something, that is the entire purpose of this board. We are D&d fans when information comes out about the latest edition we will react and we will comment.

 

[Fifth Element]

Why do they rely on eyes at all? I mean, think about it, all these twisted passages with no light? Why use eyes, if sound travels so much better? And you can't see dangerous gas-leaks anyhow, better to rely more on your trusty dwarven nose!

Indeed. IRL, things that live in darkness are generally blind, not able to see in the darkness.

 

[Fifth Element]

Yes it does.

The rest of your post is based on selectively defining positive comments in one narrow "good" track and concerned comments in one narrow "bad" track. If instead of cherry-picking like this you back up and look at all comments, both pro and con, you will find that there are very reasonable conclusions being reached on both sides and absurd speculations and misplace assumptions being placed on both sides.

No, you made a blanket statement that anyone reacting positively to what we know is as misguided as someone arguing that it sucks.

If I react positively, it's because I figure the designers know what they're doing, and will take the implications of any rules changes into account, and adjust for them. ("Eladrin can teleport? Cool." Unstated: I presume the designers will restrict the ability so it won't be unbalancing).

If I react negatively, I apparently am assuming the designers are messing around with things, and then not thinking about the consequences. ("Eladrin can teleport, so the rogue is useless").

 

[Ahglock]

No, you made a blanket statement that anyone reacting positively to what we know is as misguided as someone arguing that it sucks.

If I react positively, it's because I figure the designers know what they're doing, and will take the implications of any rules changes into account, and adjust for them. ("Eladrin can teleport? Cool." Unstated: I presume the designers will restrict the ability so it won't be unbalancing).

If I react negatively, I apparently am assuming the designers are messing around with things, and then not thinking about the consequences. ("Eladrin can teleport, so the rogue is useless").

Why is one more misguided than the other??

Maybe some people look at the designers past work and don't like what they see. So to them it is just as rational to assume the designers will again "screw it up".

If you like what they have done in the past you will likely assume the designers will "get it right".

Neither is more rational than the other, they both are based off personally opinions on past experiences with the games they have played by these designers.

 

[Fifth Element]

Why is one more misguided than the other??

Maybe some people look at the designers past work and don't like what they see. So to them it is just as rational to assume the designers will again "screw it up".

If you like what they have done in the past you will likely assume the designers will "get it right".

Neither is more rational than the other, they both are based off personally opinions on past experiences with the games they have played by these designers.

At the very least, the mods here have asked for a "benefit of the doubt" policy to be followed. Which is to say, don't assume the worst. Many of the designers are ENWorld members, and deserve as much respect as anyone else.

I dispute your assertion that both are necessarily based on personal opinions. What if someone has no opinion of the designers, because they're not familiar with the designers' previous work? The most rational reaction for these people is cautious optimism, since reacting negatively requires the assumption that these professional game designers are not qualified for their jobs.

Please note I'm comparing cautious optimism, subject to change (not unabashed optimism) to baseless negativity (not tentative negativity, subject to change).

The only rational reactions are tentative, since they are necessarily based on incomplete information. Those who jump to conclusions ("this it the best game ever"/"they're ruining D&D") deserve to be called on it, since they have nothing to support their claims.

"The rogue is obsolete" falls into the "jumping to conclusions" category, since there is nothing to support it.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Where I have a question mark is whether the designers have forseen other uses for new abilities. The Eladrin teleport ability appears, from playtest reports, to be a combat-oriented ability and is probably a "per encounter" type ability. But have they worked out what happens when a player wants to use it outside of a combat encounter?

In my experience the people who design something are not always good at looking beyond its intended use. Hopefully the external playtest will flush out these sorts of things, if they were initially overlooked, and they will have time to adjust before the books head off for printing.

The Eladrin teleport ability won't make the Rogue obsolete unless the Eladrin get a racial ability to sneak attack and disarm traps (which of course I am assuming will remain a central aspect of the Rogue, but I could be wrong).

 

[Bryntryst]

These threads never fail to deliver. People complaining about things they have no idea about solely because no information has come to light.

"Holy crap, armor hasn't been disclosed!!! Another nail in the coffin?!?!"

 

[jasin]

Where I have a question mark is whether the designers have forseen other uses for new abilities. The Eladrin teleport ability appears, from playtest reports, to be a combat-oriented ability and is probably a "per encounter" type ability. But have they worked out what happens when a player wants to use it outside of a combat encounter?

Hopefully, it works just like if you use a SWSE Force power outside a combat encounter: you use it up, and after 1 minute (or 5 minutes, or 5 rounds, or whatever) it comes back.

 

[D.Shaffer]

I'm not to worried about this 'wrecking' the rogue.

In 3rd, a Totemist can Dimension Door every round, as a move action, if he takes the right bind, all by level 2. However, it doesnt let him sneak attack, pick locks, check for traps, evade, or be a general skill monkey. It's useful, but hardly game breaking. I dont see this breaking the game in 4th, either.

 

[WayneLigon]

Even with "limited times per day," how often does a rogue have to use his skills? It's limited enough opportunity and now he's been replaced by a blink-elf

To get up on that ledge..well, let the blink-elf teleport up there. Look through the key hole and you have line of sight for instance too.

Last session, the rogue used Sneak about 10-12 times, Climb three times. I doubt the Eladrin will be able to teleport more times than that; even if it's a per-encounter ability, he still would not have been able to replace the rogue in that session. In one of the climbing sesions, I also doubt he'd have that same range.

Also, we're assuming that their ability is both quiet and relatively invisible, too. That might not be a solid assumption.