So, how do you keep'em from just 'porting away?
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Baron Opal
First Post
Teleportation Woes
I generally prefer high level campaigns myself, so I can sympathize with your concerns. Teleport has a rather significant weight limit. At, IIRC, 50 pounds per level, it takes at least a 13th level wizard to transport your typical party of four.
Wizard- thin frame, no armor, no gear: 100 lbs.
Thief- thin frame, light armor, light gear: 150 lbs.
Cleric- medium frame, heavy armor, light gear: 200 lbs.
Fighter- heavy frame, heavy armor, heavy gear: 250 lbs.
If you add up the above weight it comes to 700 / 50 = 14th level. Still, you may have a light, trim fighting force of elves and halflings. Even so, the above party would be, say, 100 + 100 + 150 + 150 = 500 / 50 = 10th level wizard.
After making up a set of stock backpacks my players could choose for new characters, most weighed in at about 40 lbs. When you include heavy armor, weapons, and a shield, the gear alone comes to 100 lbs. Back when I was fit, and young, and I did a hundred push-ups and sit-ups to warm up for my workout. I weighed 160 pounds. So, that’s where I got my fighter weight from. Even so, there are professional wrestlers, NFL linemen and heavyweight boxers that weigh 250-300 pounds naked. So, your human, dwarf or half-orc who has a high strength and constitution may weigh, with gear, 350-400 pounds all by himself!
One thing I have done to minimize bookkeeping is to use the above shortcuts and to institute a “block rule” for teleport. Weight must be distributed in 50 pound blocks. Given the non-anal retentive bookkeeping that most groups have with regards to mundane equipment and its weight, these shortcuts make things easier when determining teleportation weight. We haven’t even considered the loot yet, either.
So, that’s the weight issue. Next, impediments.
Hallow / Unhallow has already been covered, and I’m sure that Forbiddance also blocks trans- and pan-dimensional travel. There is also a tradition that lead has significant anti-magical properties. A room paneled in lead sheets is proof from scrying and teleporting. This isn’t truly feasible for a large complex except for specific, key rooms and locations. Also, there is also a tradition of areas of easy / difficult teleport access depending on ley-line locations. Since those are known about, they are sought after as either hubs of travel or secure locations. That’s pretty campaign specific, however. Still, that kind of “nerf”, if you will, is readily accepted by players when it is known at the start of a campaign.
Tone.
Claustrophobia and paranoia are fostered not so much by not being able to retreat, but by not having a safe place to retreat to. When my players where doing the scry / buff / teleport tactic to select enemies, the foes retaliated by sending an elemental horde against the town. Six large fire elementals with two huge earth elementals lurking underground work wonders on destroying a 3,000 person town. Particularly when the earth elementals suck the few people who can harm the fire elementals underground. The players teleported back to their home base and found the town a whirling inferno. The only safe place was the temple where they teleported to, and that was packed with refugees. They waxed the elementals in short order, but not before the town was ruined. The place that they had used to rest, resupply and recuperate was gone.
If you are looking to run the PCs like rats in a maze, at this level, that is difficult to do unless you declare that either the terrain does not allow for a teleport or that the spell is not available to the magician. For myself, I make sure that there are consequences for bailing out when things get difficult. Be that the possibility of a trace, limited distance traveled or even the lack of opposition that the foe now has since the heroes fled.
I generally prefer high level campaigns myself, so I can sympathize with your concerns. Teleport has a rather significant weight limit. At, IIRC, 50 pounds per level, it takes at least a 13th level wizard to transport your typical party of four.
Wizard- thin frame, no armor, no gear: 100 lbs.
Thief- thin frame, light armor, light gear: 150 lbs.
Cleric- medium frame, heavy armor, light gear: 200 lbs.
Fighter- heavy frame, heavy armor, heavy gear: 250 lbs.
If you add up the above weight it comes to 700 / 50 = 14th level. Still, you may have a light, trim fighting force of elves and halflings. Even so, the above party would be, say, 100 + 100 + 150 + 150 = 500 / 50 = 10th level wizard.
After making up a set of stock backpacks my players could choose for new characters, most weighed in at about 40 lbs. When you include heavy armor, weapons, and a shield, the gear alone comes to 100 lbs. Back when I was fit, and young, and I did a hundred push-ups and sit-ups to warm up for my workout. I weighed 160 pounds. So, that’s where I got my fighter weight from. Even so, there are professional wrestlers, NFL linemen and heavyweight boxers that weigh 250-300 pounds naked. So, your human, dwarf or half-orc who has a high strength and constitution may weigh, with gear, 350-400 pounds all by himself!
One thing I have done to minimize bookkeeping is to use the above shortcuts and to institute a “block rule” for teleport. Weight must be distributed in 50 pound blocks. Given the non-anal retentive bookkeeping that most groups have with regards to mundane equipment and its weight, these shortcuts make things easier when determining teleportation weight. We haven’t even considered the loot yet, either.
So, that’s the weight issue. Next, impediments.
Hallow / Unhallow has already been covered, and I’m sure that Forbiddance also blocks trans- and pan-dimensional travel. There is also a tradition that lead has significant anti-magical properties. A room paneled in lead sheets is proof from scrying and teleporting. This isn’t truly feasible for a large complex except for specific, key rooms and locations. Also, there is also a tradition of areas of easy / difficult teleport access depending on ley-line locations. Since those are known about, they are sought after as either hubs of travel or secure locations. That’s pretty campaign specific, however. Still, that kind of “nerf”, if you will, is readily accepted by players when it is known at the start of a campaign.
Tone.
Claustrophobia and paranoia are fostered not so much by not being able to retreat, but by not having a safe place to retreat to. When my players where doing the scry / buff / teleport tactic to select enemies, the foes retaliated by sending an elemental horde against the town. Six large fire elementals with two huge earth elementals lurking underground work wonders on destroying a 3,000 person town. Particularly when the earth elementals suck the few people who can harm the fire elementals underground. The players teleported back to their home base and found the town a whirling inferno. The only safe place was the temple where they teleported to, and that was packed with refugees. They waxed the elementals in short order, but not before the town was ruined. The place that they had used to rest, resupply and recuperate was gone.
If you are looking to run the PCs like rats in a maze, at this level, that is difficult to do unless you declare that either the terrain does not allow for a teleport or that the spell is not available to the magician. For myself, I make sure that there are consequences for bailing out when things get difficult. Be that the possibility of a trace, limited distance traveled or even the lack of opposition that the foe now has since the heroes fled.
ThirdWizard
First Post
Since we're apparently dropping the sugarcoating, I'll give you some advice. Save the adventure for another campaign with lower level PCs. Otherwise, you'll probably have grumbling players who mutter things under their breath like "railroading," "deus ex machina," and "hosing." Why? Because, its a cop out to nerf abilities just because you want to run a particular adventure.
The classic example is divination, though teleport is right behind. Lots of DMs hate divination. They can't stand it when PCs can find things out without jumping through whatever hoops they have planned. They want to make murder mysteries and hide enemy movements and hide things from the PCs. But, then PCs come along with speak with dead, scry, and locate object, and the DM complains that they cheated. They bypassed the DM's whole plan. But, they didn't cheat. They used their abilities.
Plan for them to find the McGuffin with locate object. Plan for them to know where the enemy is with scry. And, plan for them to speakwith dead to the already dead victim. Then, the players are happy that they get to use their neat new abilities, and your adventure is even better!
Teleport is one of those abilities. Like I said, if you just want the same old 1st level adventures with bigger numbers, run without teleport. Run without divniations, too, and spells like fly or heroes feast. Then they'll have to swim across that waterfall, and they'll be easy prey for the sleeping poison you'll have prepared to pull them into the adventure. Then you will only have bigger damage spell, better buffs, etc, etc, etc.
I hope this sounds unreasonable. Because, to some people, your wanting to hose teleport is just as unreasonable as someone wanting to drop break enchantment. These are abilities that PCs have, and if the adventure can take them into account, you can create an adventure with all the drama of a rat in a cage scenario without making the PCs into your rats.
Now, I'm going to 180. Sometimes its okay. There's nothing that is always bad. You could even possibly put a good spin on killing a PC with no save or way to defend themself. But, you'd better have an amazing reason to back that up. I once trapped the PCs in Carceri. They couldn't teleport out, they were effectively trapped like rats in a maze. They had the entirety of the infinite Plane to move around in, but still trapped.
So, everything has its exception. You arn't talking like this is some amazing exception, though; it seems more like "I have a cool idea for an adventure, but the PCs can easily bypass it. How can I keep them in check?" kind of deal that harkens back to ye olde modules that always start with "This is a list of spells that don't work in the dungeon: teleport, passwall, scry..." that always always always made my skin crawl.
This isn't what you want to hear, but lots of people have given you very good ideas about how to create the sense of being trapped without actually trapping the PCs. But, you dismissed this. Well, you shouldn't. If the PCs feel trapped or powerless, that's one thing. If the players feel trapped or powerless that quite another thing entirely, and one I cannot advocate.
The classic example is divination, though teleport is right behind. Lots of DMs hate divination. They can't stand it when PCs can find things out without jumping through whatever hoops they have planned. They want to make murder mysteries and hide enemy movements and hide things from the PCs. But, then PCs come along with speak with dead, scry, and locate object, and the DM complains that they cheated. They bypassed the DM's whole plan. But, they didn't cheat. They used their abilities.
Plan for them to find the McGuffin with locate object. Plan for them to know where the enemy is with scry. And, plan for them to speakwith dead to the already dead victim. Then, the players are happy that they get to use their neat new abilities, and your adventure is even better!
Teleport is one of those abilities. Like I said, if you just want the same old 1st level adventures with bigger numbers, run without teleport. Run without divniations, too, and spells like fly or heroes feast. Then they'll have to swim across that waterfall, and they'll be easy prey for the sleeping poison you'll have prepared to pull them into the adventure. Then you will only have bigger damage spell, better buffs, etc, etc, etc.
I hope this sounds unreasonable. Because, to some people, your wanting to hose teleport is just as unreasonable as someone wanting to drop break enchantment. These are abilities that PCs have, and if the adventure can take them into account, you can create an adventure with all the drama of a rat in a cage scenario without making the PCs into your rats.
Now, I'm going to 180. Sometimes its okay. There's nothing that is always bad. You could even possibly put a good spin on killing a PC with no save or way to defend themself. But, you'd better have an amazing reason to back that up. I once trapped the PCs in Carceri. They couldn't teleport out, they were effectively trapped like rats in a maze. They had the entirety of the infinite Plane to move around in, but still trapped.
So, everything has its exception. You arn't talking like this is some amazing exception, though; it seems more like "I have a cool idea for an adventure, but the PCs can easily bypass it. How can I keep them in check?" kind of deal that harkens back to ye olde modules that always start with "This is a list of spells that don't work in the dungeon: teleport, passwall, scry..." that always always always made my skin crawl.
This isn't what you want to hear, but lots of people have given you very good ideas about how to create the sense of being trapped without actually trapping the PCs. But, you dismissed this. Well, you shouldn't. If the PCs feel trapped or powerless, that's one thing. If the players feel trapped or powerless that quite another thing entirely, and one I cannot advocate.
Baron Opal
First Post
Erm...
Well, dang, they went and changed the rules on me...
Well, dang, they went and changed the rules on me...
TheAuldGrump
First Post
ThirdWizard said:
Personally I love it when the PCs use divination magic to find things out - I consider most of my adventures to be 'jigsaw puzzles' and them finding all the pieces is one of the things that gives me a warm glow. The look on their faces when they realize that things are worse than they thought is priceless, and their triumph when they manage to defeat the problem is a treasure beyond the purchase of kings.
The Auld Grump
If you have players who worship at the shrine of Monte and won't accept non-RAW nerfs, use the RAW nerfs covered in this thread - the Underdark/areas of strong electrical & magnetic energies, lead, anti-magic, and most especially the 3.5 spells created specificially to be RAW nerfs, like Dimensional Lock. Set the scenario in a Dimensionally Locked dungeon, and the PCs are 'trapped', completely RAW.
My own GM philosophy is the GM can do whatever he wants, I'm not bound by the RAW - but if I make it harder for the PCs, I give them extra XP when they win.
My own GM philosophy is the GM can do whatever he wants, I'm not bound by the RAW - but if I make it harder for the PCs, I give them extra XP when they win.
VirgilCaine
First Post
Baron Opal said:
Heward's Handy Haversacks...Portable Holes...Bags of Holding...you forgot about those?
TheAuldGrump said:
Ah, again with the Monte Cook!
Baron: Hey steward, I'm tired of people trying to kill me while I'm eating dinner. What can you do about it?
Steward: Well, how about locking the door to your dining room and building a wall around your house?
Baron: Well, I'd like to. But I'm an NPC, and so I'd be "nerfing" peoples ability to walk, which the rules clearly give them at 1st level. Apparently, it's no fun to play a character that can walk, unless you can do it all of the time and with no risk. My DM would even like to have an adventure where PCs have to run, but he can't do it - no fun for the walkers.
And don't forget furniture. Gotta get all that outta the way. Melee warrior types like to charge everything, and furniture gets in the way. Furniture's a cop-out.
And I hope you've got plenty of ramps for horses to gain purchase into your abode. All those players with Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge are nerfed when you deprive of them of the ability to take their horse everywhere. Where's the fun for them?
LOL, this is a fun little game, but in all seriousness, the big difference is that there are implicit and explicit countermeasures against the aforementioned player options. Charging has restrictions on it specifically to prevent it from being in some instances. In certain terrain, you may go an entire adventure without a chance to charge. Players know that, and should revel when they get the opportunity (on or off a mount) rather than expect a charge whenever they want one. There's not much in the way of explicitly clear countermeasures for teleport that have any long-term weight. That's what I was hoping for.
And I hope you've got plenty of ramps for horses to gain purchase into your abode. All those players with Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge are nerfed when you deprive of them of the ability to take their horse everywhere. Where's the fun for them?
LOL, this is a fun little game, but in all seriousness, the big difference is that there are implicit and explicit countermeasures against the aforementioned player options. Charging has restrictions on it specifically to prevent it from being in some instances. In certain terrain, you may go an entire adventure without a chance to charge. Players know that, and should revel when they get the opportunity (on or off a mount) rather than expect a charge whenever they want one. There's not much in the way of explicitly clear countermeasures for teleport that have any long-term weight. That's what I was hoping for.
Last edited:
ThirdWizard
First Post
gizmo33 said:
You know that's not what he's talking about, though.
Making PC abilities worthless because you don't know how to handle them is quite different than normal everyday occurances. If every time the PCs go into a dungeon they find that stone shape, dimension door, and continual flame don't work because the DM doesn't like to build dungeons around the PCs having those abilities, the DM is just being lazy. If an adventure is built around the PCs not having access to teleport, perhaps that particular adventure shouldn't be run for PCs with teleport.
It's like throwing only fire immune enemies against a PC who really wants to try out his new fireball spell.
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