So, how do you keep'em from just 'porting away?

[Kid Charlemagne]

There's not much in the way of explicitly clear countermeasures for teleport that have any long-term weight. That's what I was hoping for.

There are a reasonable amount of 3rd party spells that can screw with teleportation considerably, if you feel comfortable using them. Teleport Tracers, Redirectors, etc, and so on. Spells that give you a warning a few rounds before someone Teleports in.

Another thought is dungeons built in pocket dimensions - you can't teleport across planes, IIRC. If the entrance to the pocket dimension is craftily disguised, the PC's may take weeks to figure out why they can't teleport out.

 

[Whimsical]

Me? I learned how to stop worrying and love the bomb. I write adventures that require teleport to advance through it.

Good DM! However--could you give an example?

Well, with high level gaming, I like to think BIG! The entire multiverse is the "dungeon," teleport/wind walk/plane shift is the "hallway," the target location is the "room," and if that location happens to be secured against direct entry, then the surrounding structure is the "door" & "walls."

The fact is that 20th level adventurers can accomplish certain adventures in a day or two that would take a 15th level party a month to do, and would be impossible for a 10th level party to do. Each "dungeon room" for a 20th level party could have been the entire "dungeon" for a lower level party. And each relevant adventure site could be spread out enormous distances, including between planes, but it's just a Gate and a Teleport away. They just need to know where to go. And that's the key. They don't know where to go until they discover that a location (or creature or item) is relevant. You can string several locations together with each one revealing the relevance of the next one. If you flowchart it, you got your "dungeon map." Yeah, the party can buff/scry/teleport to the BBEG, but they can only puzzle out his true identity and where he located at the next-to-last location of the adventure. Or maybe they can only pin him down and keep him from escaping at the last location. A BBEG that keeps teleporting away before the party reaches its initative is a high-level problem to be solved.

I like to find ways to create scenarios that represent the unique aspects of high level play. Setting them in very hostile environments, supernatural locations, things like that. I like to find ways to make it distinctive from lower level games. Setting up adventures that would be impossible for a lower level party to do. My Epic players aren't going to walk down the forest path, face some wandering monsters, then clean out the abandoned castle. They are going to teleport to the bottom of the ocean thousands of miles away, then swim through a vocano on the other side of the world, then plane shift to the tunnels of insanity on Pandemonium to gather information from an imprisoned god, all within one gaming session. Plus they have to deal with teleporting ambushers during their downtime, like the characters of Charmed have to (I find Charmed to be a good resource to use for designing high level games; the latest Stargate SG 1 seasons is another good example of high-level play.)

In addition, information can arrive to the high-level PCs at an incredible rate. Information that they would have had to quest for in the past is available to them right now if they have the skills or spells to get it. If not, they only have to Teleport to the known expert of such matters and persuade him/her/it/cthulhu to reveal their knowledge.

 

[gizmo33]

You know that's not what he's talking about, though.

Making PC abilities worthless because you don't know how to handle them is quite different than normal everyday occurances. If every time the PCs go into a dungeon they find that stone shape, dimension door, and continual flame don't work because the DM doesn't like to build dungeons around the PCs having those abilities, the DM is just being lazy. If an adventure is built around the PCs not having access to teleport, perhaps that particular adventure shouldn't be run for PCs with teleport.

It's like throwing only fire immune enemies against a PC who really wants to try out his new fireball spell.

Well, true, I don't know exactly what he's talking about. When I first read this thread, I thought "man, sounds like railroading to me". I mean, I thought it was simple enough to figure out counter-measures to teleport, so perhaps I just haven't understood what the issue is about.

However, if I don't have platemail, or electrum pieces, or teleportation, or whatever in my campaign world, then who cares? That's not being lazy. Some things in the core rules would create a campaign culture that doesn't fit with the DMs vision of the world. I don't want continual flames dancing on every wooden post of every street corner of my "medieval" towns and I don't follow the reasoning of people who say that I _have_ to have it there or else I'm being lazy.

 

[I'm A Banana]

However, if I don't have platemail, or electrum pieces, or teleportation, or whatever in my campaign world, then who cares? That's not being lazy. Some things in the core rules would create a campaign culture that doesn't fit with the DMs vision of the world. I don't want continual flames dancing on every wooden post of every street corner of my "medieval" towns and I don't follow the reasoning of people who say that I _have_ to have it there or else I'm being lazy.

No one is saying "run a game in which you don't have fun." Mostly what's being said is "what's worng with having fun within the rules as they exist now?"

I mean, I do drop house rules on PC's, and I do admit that some of those are just me being lazy and not wanting to deal with certain campaign issues that occur naturally in D&D. I'm not about to go around saying that Teleport is a problem because I like to nerf it, though. The spell isn't at fault -- I am, as a DM. And y'know, every DM has their own quirks. Nerfing some effects just because I don't want to deal with them is just one of mine (and one of many's). This doesn't mean that what I nerf is bad, just that I don't have as much fun.

In a sense, you are being lazy, just like I am. But if you and your players are having fun, who cares how lazy it is? I'm the first to admit that I don't want to invest hard work in having fun. I invest hard work in what I HAVE to do, not what I like to do.

LOL, this is a fun little game, but in all seriousness, the big difference is that there are implicit and explicit countermeasures against the aforementioned player options. Charging has restrictions on it specifically to prevent it from being in some instances. In certain terrain, you may go an entire adventure without a chance to charge. Players know that, and should revel when they get the opportunity (on or off a mount) rather than expect a charge whenever they want one. There's not much in the way of explicitly clear countermeasures for teleport that have any long-term weight. That's what I was hoping for.

Well, if a DM always had scenarios wherein the PC's couldn't charge just because he didn't want the PC's to charge, that would be lazy DMing, especially if one of the players maybe played a mounted, lance-focused character. As a DM, part of your job is to make your players happy, and if you're constantly on uneven terrain when you have a charge-focused character, you're not making your players happy (probably).

Not that being lazy, again, is an especially negative thing. If you don't want to deal with charging and the PC's don't mind not charging, then you can play without charging and be happy. But that doesn't mean that charging is flawed.

Similarly, Teleport isn't flawed just because some DM's don't like to deal with it. I don't like beign able to Plane Shift whenever you want, so I nerf it. Because I'm lazy, and I find being able to plane shift only in certain circumstances adds to the dimension of my world. So I nerf it. That doesn't make plane shift flawed in any way, it just means that my needs are different.

 

[ThirdWizard]

However, if I don't have platemail, or electrum pieces, or teleportation, or whatever in my campaign world, then who cares? That's not being lazy. Some things in the core rules would create a campaign culture that doesn't fit with the DMs vision of the world. I don't want continual flames dancing on every wooden post of every street corner of my "medieval" towns and I don't follow the reasoning of people who say that I _have_ to have it there or else I'm being lazy.

I agree. If its a campaign world consideration, then toss out teleport. Remove raise dead, too if that is the reason. Heck, remove all curative magic if it really fits the world, though when you start going that far, it will probably be difficult to find players who will like your game. I'm all for altering the game for these reasons!

But, to me, that sounds like a completely different scenario than what is being discussed.

 

[Felon]

Lots of DMs hate divination. They can't stand it when PCs can find things out without jumping through whatever hoops they have planned. They want to make murder mysteries and hide enemy movements and hide things from the PCs. But, then PCs come along with speak with dead, scry, and locate object, and the DM complains that they cheated.

Making PC abilities worthless because you don't know how to handle them is quite different than normal everyday occurances.

You're quick with a straw man, Wiz, I'll give you that.

Similarly, Teleport isn't flawed just because some DM's don't like to deal with it.

No, it's flawed because it's designed so that DM's always have to deal with it, despite its disruptive potential.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Those are analogies, not straw men. A straw man would be saying that you don't like divination, and thus your desire to ner teleport is indicative of a desire to nerf everything. This wasn't what I said. What I said was, it is similar to people who nerf diviniations. And, it is. If you contest that, then bring up some points.

With the information we have to go on, you started a thread because you are having problems with teleportation. When people said, "This is a good way to incorporate them into your game," you responded that you simply don't want to deal with it. I stand by my second statement.

Naming falacies, while commiting your own, does not a valid point make.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Personally I love it when the PCs use divination magic to find things out - I consider most of my adventures to be 'jigsaw puzzles' and them finding all the pieces is one of the things that gives me a warm glow. The look on their faces when they realize that things are worse than they thought is priceless, and their triumph when they manage to defeat the problem is a treasure beyond the purchase of kings.

In a PBP I'm in at the moment, I'm playing a Druid with a Divine Oracle cohort, and one of the other PCs is a Psion.

Between us, we can talk to animals, plants, rocks, dead people, gods, and cities; we can perform Auguries, Scrying and Object Reading...

We've got no shortage of access to information.

But man... every time we found something out, it was "Wait, what? So that means that group A is working for BBEG B, so the information we got from group A can't be trusted... unless group C isn't working with BBEG B after all. And where does BBEG D fit into it all!?"

I'm having a ball

-Hyp.

 

[I'm A Banana]

No, it's flawed because it's designed so that DM's always have to deal with it, despite its disruptive potential.

It's only disruptive to DM's who aren't flexible and who can't adapt a feel to the PC's rather than the other way around.

That's not a negative judgement, just a fact of life: not every DM is flexible or comfortable with a Player-lead story.

The ability of Teleport (and divination, and high skill checks) to change the game is not a bug; it's a feature. You can get rid of the feature if you don't like it, but some do like it, and your not liking it doesn't make it a flaw.

 

[Nifft]

Yeah. I don't bother thinking of solutions any more. I just think up environments and personalities, and how the drives, plans & schemes of the latter impacts the former.

Paint in broad strokes. If someone teleports over a vaguely defined region, that's cool. If they dive into it, I throw the one little thing I prepped at them, and then have a week to flesh the rest out.

Ooo, so that's key #2: prep some small things.

-- N