So, how do you keep'em from just 'porting away?
- Thread starter Felon
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TheAuldGrump
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Felon said:
Since by the time he made that statement you had already called him a troll - twice, no, I do not, rather I would call your preemptive name calling a troll. Nor is it the first post of yours that has left me with that feeling, rightly or wrongly.
As for how to make a high level party feel hunted, that is always a tricky one, and the way I would handle it is to reverse the teleport problem, making it one that the PCs have to handle - the bad guy 'ports in a strike team of expendables (undead are good for this) whenever the party starts feeling safe. Destroys holdings while the PCs are away, murders the PCs support network, and uses teleport in new and annoying ways. Remember, if it works for the good guys then the black hats can do it too.
The Auld Grump
TheAuldGrump
First Post
Tuzenbach said:Yo, Auld! Are you a Vancouver Canucks fan? You see, they've a goaltender named............"Auld"........
Nah, just 'auld' (Scots dialect for 'old') and grumpy! Or, more accurately, I am a big fan of Changeling: the Dreaming, and one of my characters (a Seelie Redcap) picked up 'The Auld Grump' as a nickname. It fit my own self perception, so I kept it.
The Auld Grump, who has a preconcieved notion of himself...
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Glad to see you've got the answer you need. The FR Underdark's "areas of high physical or magical power" indeed were pretty much made to make Teleporting in and out something that is removed. Kind of designer fiat instead of DM fiat.
Well, many of the examples here have focused on how the adventure isn't nessecarily over just because they're in their most fortified sanctums. Pro-active villains turn the PC's home ground into the place the adventure occurs. When running home brings the bad guys with you, running home isn't always the best tactic, and it can definately make the PC's feel hunted, trapped, and paranoid.
Teleport is one way that the wizard gets a chance to shine. It's one of the ways that the wizard controlls the battlefield, and goes to war on his own terms, not the enemy's.
At about 10th level, D&D does change from PC's getting into trouble, to trouble coming to look for PC's. Teleport is one among many factors that lead into that. It's why some DM's and players don't like high level D&D. That's where games like Grim Tales can step in, or why some DM's do just play low-level D&D (and do it happily). There is a noticable shift in tone. Keeping the same tone is pretty impossible to do without nerfing a lot of the signature abilities of higher-level D&D.
Well, many of the examples here have focused on how the adventure isn't nessecarily over just because they're in their most fortified sanctums. Pro-active villains turn the PC's home ground into the place the adventure occurs. When running home brings the bad guys with you, running home isn't always the best tactic, and it can definately make the PC's feel hunted, trapped, and paranoid.
Teleport is one way that the wizard gets a chance to shine. It's one of the ways that the wizard controlls the battlefield, and goes to war on his own terms, not the enemy's.
At about 10th level, D&D does change from PC's getting into trouble, to trouble coming to look for PC's. Teleport is one among many factors that lead into that. It's why some DM's and players don't like high level D&D. That's where games like Grim Tales can step in, or why some DM's do just play low-level D&D (and do it happily). There is a noticable shift in tone. Keeping the same tone is pretty impossible to do without nerfing a lot of the signature abilities of higher-level D&D.
With that in mind, you do what my DM did when my druid could finally cast Wind Wall in 3.0.Jolly Giant said:What is it that is so lousy about having to present high-level characters with challenges that are different from the challenges that you present to low-level characters? I've heard this very same complaint from so many DMs, and every time it sounds very much to me like their real problem is that they hate having to come up with something new! "Why isn't the adventure I made for level 1 characters any fun when I run it with a party of level 10 characters? There must be something wrong with D&D!"
If the game don't change as the PCs progress in levels, why not drop all that tiresome level business completely? Let the PCs stay level 1 for ever, and keep hacking their way through one more-or-less-random wilderness encounter after the other. You'd never even have to write another adventure, just keep going over the same old routine over and over again! "If tracking down those goblin cattle rustlers was good enough at level 1, it should dang well be good enough now that the PCs are all level 20!"
*End rant mode* (Sorry about that, I just had to blow off a little steam!)
Seriously though, what you are complaining about here is quite literally that a plot device that is suitable for a low-level game isn't suitable for a higher level game. Some of us are very grateful for that, and doesn't think it is lousy at all. Some of us actually think it is an important part of what makes D&D so great. You can run a really long campaign, take the PCs through 10, 20, 30 levels, and it doesn't stay the same all the time! The game changes as you go, keeping it fresh and interesting.
Again, I'm sorry for being somewhat less than polite, but it was your post that provoked me into it.
Step 1.) Run one night and discover that the players can reach mid-continent distances in a day and avoid the teleporting ambushes you constantly besiged them for 10 levels running.
Step 2.) Declare the spell broken and that Level 16 DnD is a "super hero" game, not fantasy.
Step 3.) Start the campaign from scratch with Level 1 PC and reduce XPs to 1/6th to make sure the game last in the low levels for a looong time.
Step 4.) Go back to teleport ambushes, high level NPCs and demons that summon loads of allies. Enjoy.
Step 5.) Lose a couple of players who want a change of pace.
Don't get me wrong, it wasn't his style. I've also had story telling DM who where fun for a while, until they restart the game and set up the same old metaplot with different names for the NPCs.
No shame in enjoying a certain style, but in a level-based system the focus changes after a while.
VirgilCaine
First Post
TheAuldGrump said:
Beautiful! Vampire Spawn in the night, Classed Ghouls in the daytime...
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
As was said before, it depends upon the definition of "official" and what use of teleport you're trying to apply countermeasures to.
If official is only SRD stuff, you've got Dimensional Anchor, dim anchor tied to unhallow, forbiddance (prevents entrance but not exit), and dimensional lock. If you allow WotC stuff, you've got the anticipate teleportation spells. If you look beyond that, you've got teleport tracer and teleport redirect from Monte Cook's Book of Eldritch Might and probably some more that I don't know of.
Then, there's the question of what your countermeasures are for.
If it's for a teleporting retreat, you have Complete Warrior's Standard of No Retreat as well as the spells above. Counterspelling also prevents this (and note feats like reactive counterspell, improved counterspell, and spells like Complete Arcane's Duelward that will help to make this more practical). There's also any spell or item that separates the party as well as spells like enervation and energy drain that reduce caster level and suck up prepared spells. In addition, there are several more options to make it less attractive:
1. Reinforcements
2. Specific preparation
3. Retreat
4. Pursuit (via scry+teleport or discern location+teleport or supernatural teleportation abilities.
There are a few further countermeasures that a DM can adopt such as giving the PCs something immobile to defend or a group of people to defend who can't be teleported away (though shadow walk might still work for the latter case).
If it's scry/buff/teleport you're worried about, countermeasures can target any of those steps (though the buff step is difficult to target so the first and last are the easiest). Good will saves, misdirection, mordenkienen's private sanctum, nondetection, detect scrying, false vision, and mind blank as well as extra dimensional spaces (like Mordenkeinen's magnificant mansion) and being on another plane all work to prevent scrying. For teleportation, there are spells like forbiddance, etc. as well as spells like anticipate teleportation and teleport redirect which can turn the tables on the would-be assassins.
What countermeasures there are will depend upon what you're trying to counter.
Now, if you want the PCs to be trapped and hunted, but don't want to nerf teleport by fiat, there are some basic options:
1. Make it so teleport doesn't matter. This means a foe who can follow the teleporting players with ease or a group of foes who are present in most places the PCs would want to teleport to. The PCs literally cannot escape by teleporting. The enemy is either waiting for them or will teleport after them. (Teleport Tracer is a good spell for this application).
2. Make it so that escape doesn't matter. In this case, you would take your cue from the Terminator movies. Escaping from the Terminator was relatively easy--or at least possible. In every movie, the main characters escaped from the pursuing Terminator several times. But the Terminator was still too powerful for them to take in a straight-up fight and they were unable to inflict lasting damage on it. It could turn up at any time and when it did turn up, they needed to run or they would die. By adapting this, it probably means an enemy with limited teleportation abilities of its own and limited scrying abilities. The PCs always need to have a teleport or two on tap so that they can get away from the creature.
3. Introduce a mcguffin that prevents teleportation. If the PCs are defending the one ring (or the heir to the throne) and the one ring can't be teleported for some reason or other (maybe it counts as a creature and puts the PCs over the limit or maybe it radiates a permanent dimensional lock--a beefed up standard of no retreat would be good for this but it prevents normal retreat as well). The PCs can't abandon the mcguffin but unless they do they can't teleport.
4. Trap the PCs on another plane--especially a hostile one. If the PCs find themselves on Carceri, they can teleport all they want, but it is neither able to find them a place of real safety nor to let them escape the plane. At that point, they are trapped and need to find a way out; and since the plane is rather hostile, they will feel hunted. Best of all, as long as it's not the entire campaign, it won't feel like a fiat nerf because that's the way the planes have always worked in D&D.
If official is only SRD stuff, you've got Dimensional Anchor, dim anchor tied to unhallow, forbiddance (prevents entrance but not exit), and dimensional lock. If you allow WotC stuff, you've got the anticipate teleportation spells. If you look beyond that, you've got teleport tracer and teleport redirect from Monte Cook's Book of Eldritch Might and probably some more that I don't know of.
Then, there's the question of what your countermeasures are for.
If it's for a teleporting retreat, you have Complete Warrior's Standard of No Retreat as well as the spells above. Counterspelling also prevents this (and note feats like reactive counterspell, improved counterspell, and spells like Complete Arcane's Duelward that will help to make this more practical). There's also any spell or item that separates the party as well as spells like enervation and energy drain that reduce caster level and suck up prepared spells. In addition, there are several more options to make it less attractive:
1. Reinforcements
2. Specific preparation
3. Retreat
4. Pursuit (via scry+teleport or discern location+teleport or supernatural teleportation abilities.
There are a few further countermeasures that a DM can adopt such as giving the PCs something immobile to defend or a group of people to defend who can't be teleported away (though shadow walk might still work for the latter case).
If it's scry/buff/teleport you're worried about, countermeasures can target any of those steps (though the buff step is difficult to target so the first and last are the easiest). Good will saves, misdirection, mordenkienen's private sanctum, nondetection, detect scrying, false vision, and mind blank as well as extra dimensional spaces (like Mordenkeinen's magnificant mansion) and being on another plane all work to prevent scrying. For teleportation, there are spells like forbiddance, etc. as well as spells like anticipate teleportation and teleport redirect which can turn the tables on the would-be assassins.
What countermeasures there are will depend upon what you're trying to counter.
Now, if you want the PCs to be trapped and hunted, but don't want to nerf teleport by fiat, there are some basic options:
1. Make it so teleport doesn't matter. This means a foe who can follow the teleporting players with ease or a group of foes who are present in most places the PCs would want to teleport to. The PCs literally cannot escape by teleporting. The enemy is either waiting for them or will teleport after them. (Teleport Tracer is a good spell for this application).
2. Make it so that escape doesn't matter. In this case, you would take your cue from the Terminator movies. Escaping from the Terminator was relatively easy--or at least possible. In every movie, the main characters escaped from the pursuing Terminator several times. But the Terminator was still too powerful for them to take in a straight-up fight and they were unable to inflict lasting damage on it. It could turn up at any time and when it did turn up, they needed to run or they would die. By adapting this, it probably means an enemy with limited teleportation abilities of its own and limited scrying abilities. The PCs always need to have a teleport or two on tap so that they can get away from the creature.
3. Introduce a mcguffin that prevents teleportation. If the PCs are defending the one ring (or the heir to the throne) and the one ring can't be teleported for some reason or other (maybe it counts as a creature and puts the PCs over the limit or maybe it radiates a permanent dimensional lock--a beefed up standard of no retreat would be good for this but it prevents normal retreat as well). The PCs can't abandon the mcguffin but unless they do they can't teleport.
4. Trap the PCs on another plane--especially a hostile one. If the PCs find themselves on Carceri, they can teleport all they want, but it is neither able to find them a place of real safety nor to let them escape the plane. At that point, they are trapped and need to find a way out; and since the plane is rather hostile, they will feel hunted. Best of all, as long as it's not the entire campaign, it won't feel like a fiat nerf because that's the way the planes have always worked in D&D.
Felon said:
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
In D&D, that's pretty hard. Knocking them unconcious is often harder than outright killing them, unlessy you happen to be a rogue with a sap (and then good luck hitting the fighters). And then cure spells do more with nonlethal damage than they do with regular damage.
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
Another idea occured to me - try making the PC's feel harried and set upon in a slightly different way.
Have you seen the new Battlestar Galactica? Season one opened with an episode where the Cylons kept finding the Battlestar exactly 33 minutes after they did a hyperspace jump... It kept up for days.
Something very similar could be done with teleporting - taking the ideas of the game and working with them.
Of course, you can just disallow spells. That's the easy part. Figuring out how to work within the ruleset is where things can get really interesting, I think. Once you delve into house rules, there's really not a whole lot people who aren't fully aware of your house rules can offer.
Have you seen the new Battlestar Galactica? Season one opened with an episode where the Cylons kept finding the Battlestar exactly 33 minutes after they did a hyperspace jump... It kept up for days.
Something very similar could be done with teleporting - taking the ideas of the game and working with them.
Of course, you can just disallow spells. That's the easy part. Figuring out how to work within the ruleset is where things can get really interesting, I think. Once you delve into house rules, there's really not a whole lot people who aren't fully aware of your house rules can offer.
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