So, how many are avoiding Essentials?

[mikeloop86]

Here's the thing - With PHB 1, Dwarves were actually not optimized very nicely for this role, since they got a + to wis instead of to strength.

Wis is one of the next most important stats for Fighters, applying directly to Combat Superiority (their +Wis Mod to Opportunity attacks from Combat Challenge, and thus their ability to stop people from moving around them) and to their Will Defense.

You also are ignoring the fact that Dwarves got a +2 to Con as well, which, if one was a Hammer/Axe fighter (ala your Iconic Dwarf), was another important stat, as it applied to weapon rider powers like Giant's Wake, (+Con mod to damage, twice) or Crushing Blow. Constitution also, as we all well know, applies directly to HP/Surges, which are important for any Defender Role. It also doesn't hurt that the Dwarf could spend Second Wind as a minor action, essentially gaining a personal Heal/Buff over all the other races.

I'm not saying I'm against the choice available now, between +2 Str or +2 Wis, but someone picking the latter is far from un-optimized. The fact that you get modifiers to two secondary stats allows the player to invest more points into his primary stat (in the Dwarf Fighter's case: Strength), allowing for him to put that 18 there, while safely leaving the other secondary stats in the 12-13 range and letting the racial modifiers pick up the slack.

Plus, the fighter was burdened with tons and tons of at-wills and utility powers, etc.

Fighter got 2 at-will powers, just like everyone else. The Essentials Knight, on the other hand, gets 4 at-will powers at level 1 (Aura, 2 Stances, and an Opportunity Power), so I don't know where you can get off saying the original fighter was burdened by At-wills.

On the subject of Utility powers, the burden of being able to NEGATE certain attacks, Regenerate in battle, Buff oneself for a round/encounter, or negate an attack that hit and ALLY, is something I'd gladly take over counting how many times a day I get to Power Strike in an encounter.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Personally I agree with you mike, and you are dead on with the crunch. PHB1 dwarves, without ANY added materials are beyond doubt the best "stand and take it" fighters. One of my players started with one on day 1 of 4e. The character has been retired now in order to try out other stuff, but at level 10 it was doing striker level damage, had GOOD defenses, huge hit points, and was just all around bad news for monsters. Between DWT, minor action Second Wind, and getting saves against forced movement the thing is almost ridiculous, and the player certainly didn't optimize the character. With the choice of +2 STR it would be just plain scary. One thing to note, Essentials dwarves get +2 WIS and +2 STR or CON, so you can't get both the STR and CON bonus.

OTOH as far as the mechanics go in terms of options, I can see a lot of people wanting to play a slayer or knight. They really do seem to reduce the burden on the player at the table. One can argue the merits but experience is hard to dispute.

 

[Obryn]

One thing to note, Essentials dwarves get +2 WIS and +2 STR or CON, so you can't get both the STR and CON bonus.

No... They have a fixed Constitution bonus, and have to pick Strength or Wisdom.

-O

 

[martialclasses]

I guess the real only difference between PHB1 dwarves and Essentials dwarves is the availability of +2 Str, which, in my mind, puts them into the pantheon of great Fighter choices along with Goliath and Half Orc.

Maybe I'm just weird, but it always nagged at the back of my mind to know that I was missing out on accuracy that I could otherwise have had.

I have two quick clarification questions, though:
1- Bludgeon Expertise says it adds +1 to the number of squares pushed by bludgeon attacks. Am I correct in believing that this means all attacks get at least 1, even MBAs?
2- Does Master at Arms stack with Bludgeon Expertise, letting you have +2 to accuracy at level 2?

Thanks guys. (Keep in mind that I am still on the newbie-ish side of the spectrum)

Another quick note: I love the idea of the slayer. I can imagine many, many people who opened the PHB1 back in the day and wanted to play fighters but felt frustrated by the fact that their "role" was to defend rather than being a big tough guy who hit stuff with a big sword. You COULD do that, but your "role" was still defending. I like the fact that they've delinked roles from classes and linked them to builds instead. I think that's a great idea. If I'm not mistaken, it also opened up the way for a striker wizard (pyromancer), right?

 

[Incenjucar]

While I do like a few of the things I've seen in essentials - I'm a big fan of the new assassin (though, balance issues aside, I also really like the old assassin too), but I really don't like the overall direction that essentials takes some rather important things in a direction I dislike and has made it sound like what I want (true shadow and elemental classes as fleshed out as at least PHB2 stuff) will never be... coupled with their permanent lack of presence in the offline CB, and having no USE for the new builds as either a player or DM, since they don't actually bring anything new concept-wise... there's just no reason for me to spend money on it, and since I am an honorable sort, I've simply ignored it entirely out of both disinterest and some measure of protest.

If and when 4E starts moving back in a direction I like (More PHB2 and Dark Sun, less PHB3 and Essentials), I may reconsider them if they haven't been made largely non-functional by then.

A player in my game wouldn't be stopped from essentials materials, so long as they didn't expect me to abide by any of the new rules.

 

[Thorvald_Grimbjorn]

It was like FINALLY this iconic concept, which I wasn't able to really do with PHB1, was available. WHY wasn't this PHB1?!

Not to belabor the point others have made, but both iconic Dwarf Fighter concepts (axe/hammer-and-shield and two-handed axe/hammer) were viable right off the gate with PHB1. With STR 16, CON 16 and WIS 16 (easily doable thanks to his racial modifiers), he was the best "I'm standing right here and you're not budging me" Fighter, at the cost of +1 to attack and damage rolls when compared to other hammer/axe wielders.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I guess the real only difference between PHB1 dwarves and Essentials dwarves is the availability of +2 Str, which, in my mind, puts them into the pantheon of great Fighter choices along with Goliath and Half Orc.

The thing is they were already there. They might not have hit quite as hard as the Goliath (although Dwarven Weapon Talent helped). But they were quite seriously the toughest race in the game. They had two stats that helped any fighter. And the easily underrated gem of the dwarven collection is the ability to use Second Wind as a minor action. Gain 25% hp back? And +2 to all defences for a round? That's powerful enough to be a standard action for most people - but dwarves can effectively do it for free.

Maybe I'm just weird, but it always nagged at the back of my mind to know that I was missing out on accuracy that I could otherwise have had.

There needs to be some downside for playing a Dwarf. Toughest race going and with a great weapon selection.

I have two quick clarification questions, though:
1- Bludgeon Expertise says it adds +1 to the number of squares pushed by bludgeon attacks. Am I correct in believing that this means all attacks get at least 1, even MBAs?

I don't believe so. Of course a Knight using Hammer Hands pushes 2 on a MBA, but I digress.

2- Does Master at Arms stack with Bludgeon Expertise, letting you have +2 to accuracy at level 2?

Absolutely not. Both are feat bonusses.

Another quick note: I love the idea of the slayer.

Indeed. I have absolutely no desire to play a Slayer but am glad it's there.

If I'm not mistaken, it also opened up the way for a striker wizard (pyromancer), right?

The Evoker got there first as a striker wizard... He's still technically a controller but the relationship is more tenuous. (That said, you can be an Evoker/Pyromancer for some pretty nasty damage with certain spells).

 

[The Little Raven]

I guess the real only difference between PHB1 dwarves and Essentials dwarves is the availability of +2 Str, which, in my mind, puts them into the pantheon of great Fighter choices along with Goliath and Half Orc.

Maybe I'm just weird, but it always nagged at the back of my mind to know that I was missing out on accuracy that I could otherwise have had.

That's the thing about the other racial features the dwarf has: they balance out that loss of accuracy/damage with other factors that make a defender more effective (keeping himself up, stickier with +Wis, can't be moved around or knocked prone easily).

1- Bludgeon Expertise says it adds +1 to the number of squares pushed by bludgeon attacks. Am I correct in believing that this means all attacks get at least 1, even MBAs?

No. It explicitly only adds to a push, or else it would tell you that it pushes the target 1 square or increases the distance of a push 1 square.

2- Does Master at Arms stack with Bludgeon Expertise, letting you have +2 to accuracy at level 2?

Nope. Both are feat bonuses, and bonuses of the same type don't stack.

And glad to hear you're liking 4th Edition and Essentials. I was hesitant about Essentials myself, as I was worried about going back to the old paradigm of Fighters being lame, but I'm enjoying my slayer immensely.

 

[martialclasses]

Hey guys -- Thanks a lot for you straightforward answers. You've really helped me understand.