So how many of you made the switch?

[Plane Sailing]

We switched reluctantly. They screwed some stuff up in my opinion, but there were more improvements than steps back. We use a mostly-3.5 hybrid.

Same here. We pretty much use 3.5 as-is except for 2-for-1 power attack for 2H weapons (which still seems nonsensical to us) which we didn't introduce.


The biggest annoyances were dozens of pointless changes to spells. While heal/haste/harm needed fixing, we didn't need to change lightning bolt to a 'line' (had you ever seen any disputes about lightning bolt? I never did), we didn't need numerous fiddling about with this spell duration here, that area there, we didn't need fixed ranges for cones and we didn't need multi-function spells to be broken up (emotion, symbol, others?). Nor did we need the extra beefing up of conjuration either.

 

[Cam Banks]

It's critical basic elements of the game rules - such as starting encounters and traps - that drive me nuts that they got so wrong in the transition. I'm not interested in starting another edition war, that battle was moot long ago, I'm just honestly curious how you cope with these basic elements of D&D play in your 3.5 game?

Wow. I don't think I have ever bothered with starting encounter distances. D&D3.5 has a lot of rules in place for when you need them, but I wouldn't call them all critical. Certainly not those ones.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[DragonLancer]

I didn't want to switch to 3.5 because I found it to be just another pointless excuse to make money out of the players, but I did change over because my group and I are playing D&D and we felt that it would be better. We're happy with 3.5.

However, I won't be throwing any money towards a 4th edition though.

 

[Nifft]

My house rules doc got much shorter thanks to 3.5e, which stole most of its good ideas from me.

Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Haste/Harm/Heal nerfs -- I heart 3.5e!

-- N

 

[Nifft]

In 3.5 core it's "I cast maximized horrid wilting through my metamagic rod of maximize, then quickened horrid wilting through my quicken rod and then with my extra action from being shapechanged into a choker I'll toss another maximized horrid wilting, through my rod of course." Your combats should be worse, not better.

The Quickened one you could cast while holding two rods, but the Maximized one you'd need a free hand for. You could drop your Greater Rod of Quickening, but I can't imagine anyone actually doing that.

Also, it's easier to take out the stupid Choker than to take out 3.0e's haste, at least IMXP. The monster palette is clearly in the hands of the DM, while the spell palette is right there in the PHB, staring the players in the face, taunting them to greater heights of power.

C, -- N

 

[DungeonMaster]

The Quickened one you could cast while holding two rods, but the Maximized one you'd need a free hand for. You could drop your Greater Rod of Quickening, but I can't imagine anyone actually doing that.

Or you could just start with both maximizes, then switch to the rod of quickening with your move action. Either way, it's plenty possible.

Also, it's easier to take out the stupid Choker than to take out 3.0e's haste, at least IMXP. The monster palette is clearly in the hands of the DM, while the spell palette is right there in the PHB, staring the players in the face, taunting them to greater heights of power.

Eliminating monsters or spells are much the same. You're changing the rules to suit. I still don't think 3rd edition haste is broken, and the plethora of non-core 3.5 stuff that allow you to get 12+ spells per-round throw it in the "balanced" category by their standard.

 

[jcfiala]

Eliminating monsters or spells are much the same. You're changing the rules to suit. I still don't think 3rd edition haste is broken, and the plethora of non-core 3.5 stuff that allow you to get 12+ spells per-round throw it in the "balanced" category by their standard.

I call exaggeration here - please explain to me how, using Wizards rules for 3.5, you manage to get 12+ spells per round? Because I don't think it can be done.

I know that you can get one quickened spell, and one standard spell - that's easily enough done. How do you get 12+?

 

[DestroyYouAlot]

I never "switched," per se (I had just gotten back into role-playing less than a year before they dropped 3.5, and I had already blown $60 on 3.0 core rules), but I've been gradually house-ruling in changes the whole time. There's plenty of changes that I like, and there's a few that I thought were unnecessary (size/facings, especially). I like that the skill uses are better defined, the weapon size system seems to make sense (although I don't use it), and a lot of the silly little mistakes (like ogres being CR2 instead of 3, just ran into this one myself) have been weeded out. The 3.5 SRD is nice to have access to. I'll switch over eventually, once I stumble into some dirt-cheap 3.5 books, and then I'll just go ahead and house-rule in the things that I like better about 3.0 (as I have done with 1e and 2e, and whatever else). As far as everything else, I don't even notice the difference if I'm using 3.0 or 3.5 supplements. I couldn't tell you which was which unless I'm looking at a monster listing. No biggy.


Edit: Oops, haste is as per 3.5 in my game. My players would take full advantage of that one, otherwise - and I couldn't blame them.

 

[anhar]

I'm going to try not to bicker, here.

You make some more interesting points, DungeonMaster. I hadn't considered the metamagic rods, as I haven't had a campaign go above 12th level in 3.5 {got one to 26th in 3.0, legitimately. started at 1st}. You have a good point. They can certainly be utter cheese. So can the "Sudden X" brand of spells from complete arcane {no prerequisites for sudden maximize? WTF?} I'm not saying there aren't still problems in 3.5, but that the changes that were made outweigh the problems.

I immediately recognized the possibility for cheese as soon as I saw the Choker in the 3.5 MM. However, as an above poster suggested, I'd just remove the choker, or remove that ability from the choker. And just because a PC can emulate 3.0 Haste by using a 9th level spell {which has been the go-to device for cheese since 2e} to turn into a cheesebeast doesn't mean that 3.0 haste isn't broken. A wizard {with a wand or really good int} can start tossing two fireballs a round in 3.0 at 5th level. In order to get the same effect, Shapechange requires a 17th level wizard with a high Knowledge: Dungeoneering score {gotta know what a choker is and what it can do to change into one}. You could get a scroll earlier than that, {depending on your DM, I'm not a big idea of scrolls above 5th level being on any sort of open market} but you still gotta know about chokers, and then extrapolate what you know "chokers are supernaturally quick" into "chokers are supernaturally quick, and that means that if I turn into a choker I can cast two spells a round, even though spells that make me supernaturally quick, like Haste, don't allow that."

I'd say that kind of metagame knowledge would be reaaaaaaaal difficult to come by legitimately unless your pc's ran into a choker with caster levels at some point. but then you've got a cheese DM and you might as well break out defenders of the faith {3.0 splatbook} and get you some armor of speed {+3 bonus armor, permahaste. I literally threw that book across the room when I saw that. Speed for weapons is a +4 bonus, and only gives you an extra attack.}

I don't think there is any legitimate way {considering PC wealth guidelines} to get a 5th level wizard to be able to cast 2 spells a round in 3.5, even if you let in the complete X books. Not everybody plays 17th level shapechanging wizards with multiple greater rods of metamagic, y'know. I know you were playing off my 3.0 example, but yours doesn't really fit since outside of spell selection, mine only required an 11th level caster for contingency. Yours requires a 17th level wizard with 300000gp worth of easily sunderable rods in his grubby choker tentacles. {which leaves him with 40k worth of other equipment. which means he's got a +6 Int item and like a +2 con item and that's IT}. I think I'm trying to say that the Cheese is more expensive in 3.5. Cheese is harder to obtain. I don't know if you used the splatbooks in 3.0, but I'm pretty sure thats where the metamagic rods came from. either there or the forgotten realms stuff.



DungeonMaster- "I've actually seen only a single multiclass ranger ever. And he had 5 levels of it, not 1. I've seen many pure high level rangers. 3.5 rangers are wildrogues and they're terrible at it since the 3.5 druid outclass them in every way. Bards suck in 3.5 even worse than before, not only does bardsong take up an action but they have worse armor, spell lists. They gained very little in the transition and rangers lost more than any other class. I really don't care that 1 in 4 monks are different by a feat or two. Really it's pointless."



{I think this is my tenth post in more than a year, I don't know how to quote correctly, if anyone can let me know that'd be great.}


Only one multiclass ranger? You clearly do not play with the same type of people I play with. There is no good reason to take ranger levels instead of fighter levels after ranger/1 in 3.0, unless you really really want more worthless favored enemies {oh good I can take undead/plant/construct/elemental/ooze and NOT DO MY EXTRA DAMAGE} or pointless spellcasting ability. Seriously, the ranger in 3.0 is ENTIRELY frontloaded. Oh and once again, all rangers are entirely alike in class progression. Just like the monks, no options. All rangers TWF. I think moving the stealthy fighter type to a d8 HP was an acceptable move. Not a terrible loss considering ranger gains extra skill points and an actual class progression. And druids only massively outclass them if you give them their items while they wildshape.

I cannot help you if you think bards suck worse in 3.5. Inspire courage gets better as you level now, rather than just making it so your cleric never has to cast prayer. And I don't think starting your bardsong was ever supposed to be a free action. You were supposed to be able to fight while continuing it, which I believe you still can do in 3.5, but starting it was a supernatural ability that didn't say it was a free action, so by default it's a standard action. And what got worse in their spell list?

Again, I agree that weapon sizing was stupid. but there is a variant rule printed in the handbook for using the old method. I think they knew that the weapon sizing wasn't going to be popular.

I'm not sure what loopholes you're talking about with Wish, and I'm honestly interested in hearing about them so I can hopefully stop them before it happens in my campaign. I've always thought miracle was the one with loopholes, since it doesn't have an XP cost for most things.

How do I deal with the complete X books? I ignore most of the book. I really like the warlock and the scout. Hexblade isn't bad either. I like the draconic heritage feats for sorcerers cause they desperately need something to help them out.

Oh and as for the MM2? I've never seen so many CR screw-ups in one place. Reading it gave me a brain tumor. I hated it so much the first thing I did when I found this site was write a review of it, and that was like 3 years after the last time I touched the book. Seriously, I know this is off topic but the adamantine horror alone makes me want to strangle whoever was in charge of that book.

hope I didn't bicker or come off too angry.

oh and yeah the traps suck. I've read it more and seriously that section needs a rethinking. but don't remember how it was in 3.0, so I don't know what you're comparing it to.

 

[anhar]

oh, and not to spam-post, but bards in 3.5 can cast spells in light armor with no chance of failure.

In my 3.0 PHB it says bards get standard spell failure chances.
I'd much rather not have spell failure in light armor than have the ability to wear medium armor.