So Int does NOT add to skills

[Sir Sebastian Hardin]

I've gotta think Int does something else. This can't be all!

It makes you a better wizard.

Charisma makes you a better warlock and is added to charisma checks and Will Defense.

Why should intellignece do more than charisma?

A high INT also makes you look smart

It also allow you to use long dificult words, understand jokes that most don't get, and gives you the power to call everyone else an idiot, being sarcastic... That's enough for me. (Hey look at Roy from OOTS!)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

if many monstes have knowledge checks entries, maybe thats enough... knowing some vulnerabilities can decide over win or loss...

 

[Ahglock]

That's if you think the idea of dump stats (stats your class doesn't need to get it's job done) is a bad one. I don't. Just like a wizard has never needed to be strong or dextrous or charismatic, and the fighter has never needed to be smart or wise or charismatic. I don't see why that should suddenly change, since the idea that every single stat should be useful for every single character just makes you have to spread your points around (if point buy), thus making you less good at what you should be good at (since your fighter will have less Strength in order to buy up that Intelligence and Charisma).

Well to me a good dump stat system is a stat you can freely ignore putting points into a stat and your character works out fine. A bad dump stat system is a system where you are dumb to put points into a stat. I don't mind so much if in specific examples X class should not put anything into Y stat happens, but when its only this class should put any points into Y stat I think you have a bad stat design.

I have hopes that there is more to the mental stats than we are seeing, so they don't fall into you are dumb unless you have these specific class abilities category.

 

[Stalker0]

Classes are narrow archetypes. By making them broader, you eliminate the purpose they serve: to provide a narrow archetype package.

Hardly. The 3e rogue for example could be a cunning diplomat, a sneak thief, a skillful expert, a swashbuckler, or with multiclass could add skillfullness to another martial class. While each one o these is "narrow" as you describe, that's a wide variety of things you could be off of one class.

The purpose of classes is to provide some consistent bonuses and abilities to each player and to each party. In 3e, this meant everyone got hitpoints, saves, attacks every level....it prevented you from playing a fighter with a +20 attack bonus and 1 hitpoint at first level.

And even if int adds something to a fighter, it doesn't mean every fighter suddenly has to be smart to compete. Obviously, having a big strength helps the fighter tremendously. If int provides a small benefit, then it becomes an option, but certainly not a mandatory one. I don't mind that int has been removed from skills, but it should continue to provide some benefit imo.

 

[hong]

Well to me a good dump stat system is a stat you can freely ignore putting points into a stat and your character works out fine.

So... a 3E fighter being able to freely ignore putting points into Int and Cha and still working out fine is an example of a good dump stat system?

A bad dump stat system is a system where you are dumb to put points into a stat.

So... a 3E fighter being dumb to put points into Int and Cha is an example of a bad dump stat system?

 

[helium3]

Every stat should do SOMETHING for each class.

I agree.

4E will continue to be Unfun until the designers realize that every stat should have meaningful actions to take in EVERY round of combat.

Where's the fun in being INT and forced to miss with a crossbow 4 rounds out of five, while STR does something every round and gets all the glory?

 

[broghammerj]

Well, since the fighter is not the ranged attack class, I don't see why bringing up ranged weapons is useful, since that archetype is covered by the ranger (and much better).

It would really sadden me if the fighter was so pigeoned holed that he couldn't be an effective bowman. Not everyone wants to play Robinhood the woodsy archer. I want the fighting man who is generically good with fighting at whatever weapon I choose....but that is for another thread.

 

[Incenjucar]

The fighter would just have to take a ranger power or two to have some effective ranged ability.

 

[Felon]

Classes are narrow archetypes. By making them broader, you eliminate the purpose they serve: to provide a narrow archetype package....

Well, since the fighter is not the ranged attack class, I don't see why bringing up ranged weapons is useful....

Sometimes, Mourn, you really do talk sense.

Perhaps, mach, but sometimes he's just making pithy-sounding assertions that are actually highly equivocal.

What Mourn's basically doing here is taking some of the design elements of 4e that are themselves rather specious (or at the very least, are themselves the subject of heated debate) and using them to say other design elements are justified. Don't look for customization in 4e, because customization is counter to the purpose of giving you a character that's pre-designed "package". Don't argue that Dex should be important to fighters, because now that's not something you're supposed to do with fighters; archery is for rangers.

The weird thing is that people see dump stats as OK for (traditional, <4E) casters but not for martial classes. Nobody bats an eyelid 'cos STR is rubbish and a dump stat for a Wiz. (But what if I want to play a Wiz with low INT and high STR?)

Honestly folks, can we just ditch the "casters can dump-stat ST, so everybody else should be able to dump-stat everything other than their prime ability score" argument? That's a "two-wrongs-make-a-right" rationale.

It's not correct that "nobody bats an eye" at the thought of a wizard dump-statting ST. Many have bemoaned being unable to make physically-competent wizards. Many hoped that 4e would provide more options in that area, rather than doing the reverse and providing more non-viable builds (like non-wizards that invest in INT).

 

[Felon]

Well to me a good dump stat system is a stat you can freely ignore putting points into a stat and your character works out fine.

To me, that's not a good dump-stat system. To me, that's a system where you shouldn't have stats to begin with.

Think about it. If an ability score is only going to have applicability to specific classes, then just take the benefits of having the stat and transfer it over to the class. Kill the middle-man. Otherwise, you just needlessly putting a class feature on another page.

If you're going to have a system with ability scores, the entire point of them should be to provide benefits of a general nature.