WotC So it seems D&D has picked a side on the AI art debate.

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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Hang on, are we just ignoring that 90% of uploads to Pintrist aren't done by the image owner?

Like, I can find most of the D&D 3E and Pathfinder artworks on there and I can sure tell you, they sure weren't uploaded by WotC or Pathfinder. Pointing to a TOS is kind of pointless when what people know about Pintrist is that it just, is basically a piracy website if what you're specifically pirating is images.
No we aren't. The images aren't one step from Pinterest as the people claiming theft & similar keep saying. When the discussion is "theft, stealing, unethical" >"well actually" > "nope never happened, the sky is purple" the nuances aren't something that has room for exploration.

Since you bring it up though... Pinterest is only one of the sites where images were pulled from & the sites + their percentages were listed earlier. Pinterest was 8.5% of the images if I'm reading it right. The whole dataset was publicly available common crawl data.

There were several lawsuits filed yes, but filing a lawsuit & showing standing or harm are different things & I don't think any have even progressed to the point of opening arguments or they are doing so in a way that is completely obscured to the media. Here is a pretty good article & relevant quote
“Unfortunately, I expect a flood of litigation for almost all generative AI products,” Heather Meeker, a legal expert on open source software licensing and a general partner at OSS Capital, told TechCrunch via email. “The copyright law needs to be clarified.”


Content creators such as Polish artist Greg Rutkowski, known for creating fantasy landscapes, have become the face of campaigns protesting the treatment of artists by generative AI startups. Rutkowski has complained about the fact that typing text like “Wizard with sword and a glowing orb of magic fire fights a fierce dragon Greg Rutkowski” will create an image that looks very similar to his original work — threatening his income.

Given generative AI isn’t going anywhere, what comes next? Which legal cases have merit and what court battles lie on the horizon?

Eliana Torres, an intellectual property attorney with Nixon Peabody, says that the allegations of the class action suit against Stability AI, Midjourney, and DeviantArt will be challenging to prove in court. In particular, she thinks it’ll be difficult to ascertain which images were used to train the AI systems because the art the systems generate won’t necessarily look exactly like any of the training images.


State-of-the-art image-generating systems like Stable Diffusion are what’s known as “diffusion” models. Diffusion models learn to create images from text prompts (e.g. “a sketch of a bird perched on a windowsill”) as they work their way through massive training datasets. The models are trained to “re-create” images as opposed to drawing them from scratch, starting with pure noise and refining the image over time to make it incrementally closer to the text prompt.

That bold underlined bit is important because of how art can be substantially similar & not be infringing. There is a good writeup on it complete with an example here that is very much worth reading. That substantially similar bar is part of why it orobably doesn't matter even if such images were used in training. In short NBC (magnumPI)& Lucas film(Indiana Jones) have a rock solid case against Disney for decades of chip & dale doing whatever technical legal wrong may have been done by the AI if any of those lawsuits produce results of some form... Well at least assuming that either of those two can meet the lofty bar of proving that it is not just a meme.
 

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Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
That bold underlined bit is important because of how art can be substantially similar & not be infringing. There is a good writeup on it complete with an example here that is very much worth reading. That substantially similar bar is part of why it orobably doesn't matter even if such images were used in training. In short NBC (magnumPI)& Lucas film(Indiana Jones) have a rock solid case against Disney for decades of chip & dale doing whatever technical legal wrong may have been done by the AI if any of those lawsuits produce results of some form... Well at least assuming that either of those two can meet the lofty bar of proving that it is not just a meme.
The problem is though, substantially similar wouldn't really apply here because its a case where its not things ending up similar through drawing, but downright manipulating the image in question. But I'm not a lawyer so who knows how it'll go (Outside of that one case with the monkey stating that copywright requires a human to do the creation so technically AI artwork all cannot be copywritten). Regardless of legality though, its still a Dick Move to just, grab this stuff and not get someone's permission before doing this type of thing, and I absolutely bet you "My image will be taken and modified by an AI" wasn't even a thought any of those artists had when they uploaded it.

Mind, given every argument on this stuff etiher way, I'm going to stick by my "If a project is using AI work its synonimous with being cheap and lazy" statements from earlier. Its the image version of going for the lowest quality paper you can find to save an extra buck.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
The problem is though, substantially similar wouldn't really apply here because its a case where its not things ending up similar through drawing, but downright manipulating the image in question. But I'm not a lawyer so who knows how it'll go (Outside of that one case with the monkey stating that copywright requires a human to do the creation so technically AI artwork all cannot be copywritten). Regardless of legality though, its still a Dick Move to just, grab this stuff and not get someone's permission before doing this type of thing, and I absolutely bet you "My image will be taken and modified by an AI" wasn't even a thought any of those artists had when they uploaded it.

Mind, given every argument on this stuff etiher way, I'm going to stick by my "If a project is using AI work its synonimous with being cheap and lazy" statements from earlier. Its the image version of going for the lowest quality paper you can find to save an extra buck.
We are not yet at a level of AI where an AGI capable of creating art (or anything) without some form of human interaction. Anything produced by AI is done because a human did something creative in telling it what to do. Yes some of those tools could be used to make changes to an existing image under the direction of a human like some of stelfie's, but feeding a bunch of terms to one in order to generate an image doesn't take any of the training data images to "manipulate".

As to the "Dick Move" no artist is coming from a background of plato's cave.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
I think there’s also 2 questions there.

Legally is it currently fair use?
Should it be fair use?
We are not yet at a level of AI where an AGI capable of creating art (or anything) without some form of human interaction. Anything produced by AI is done because a human did something creative in telling it what to do. Yes some of those tools could be used to make changes to an existing image under the direction of a human like some of stelfie's, but feeding a bunch of terms to one in order to generate an image doesn't take any of the training data images to "manipulate".

As to the "Dick Move" no artist is coming from a background of plato's cave.
Hmm, this is more an “are computers making actual” question than an “is training ai fair use” question. I think you are dodging the question by eliding from the second to the first.

If and when a trained AI could produce art, would using art to train the AI be fair use?

TomB
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
”https://policy.pinterest.com/en/terms-of-service” said:
Pinterest helps you discover and do what you love. To do that, we show you things we think will be relevant, interesting and personal to you based on your onsite and offsite activity.
….
You grant Pinterest and our users a non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable, sublicensable, worldwide license to use, store, display, reproduce, save, modify, create derivative works, perform, and distribute your User Content on Pinterest solely for the purposes of operating, developing, providing, and using Pinterest.

1) Operating and using Pinterest, as Pinterest defines itself as a service, seems in no way to involve AI generated art.

2) You can only grant usage rights to content that is yours, and you must put it on Pinterest to grant them rights.

3) My understand (from the lengthy OGL discussion, involving actual lawyers) is that if somewhere Pinterest says they can change the terms to anything they want, that is not a valid contract clause. Such a clause reduces a contract to a one sided agreement, which is not a valid contract.

TomB
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Since you bring it up though... Pinterest is only one of the sites where images were pulled from & the sites + their percentages were listed earlier. Pinterest was 8.5% of the images if I'm reading it right. The whole dataset was publicly available common crawl data.
Ok, so to be clear, you’re claiming that common crawl compensated the artists of the works the AI was trained on for use of their art? How so?
There were several lawsuits filed yes, but filing a lawsuit & showing standing or harm are different things & I don't think any have even progressed to the point of opening arguments or they are doing so in a way that is completely obscured to the media. Here is a pretty good article & relevant quote
“Unfortunately, I expect a flood of litigation for almost all generative AI products,” Heather Meeker, a legal expert on open source software licensing and a general partner at OSS Capital, told TechCrunch via email. “The copyright law needs to be clarified.”


Content creators such as Polish artist Greg Rutkowski, known for creating fantasy landscapes, have become the face of campaigns protesting the treatment of artists by generative AI startups. Rutkowski has complained about the fact that typing text like “Wizard with sword and a glowing orb of magic fire fights a fierce dragon Greg Rutkowski” will create an image that looks very similar to his original work — threatening his income.

Given generative AI isn’t going anywhere, what comes next? Which legal cases have merit and what court battles lie on the horizon?

Eliana Torres, an intellectual property attorney with Nixon Peabody, says that the allegations of the class action suit against Stability AI, Midjourney, and DeviantArt will be challenging to prove in court. In particular, she thinks it’ll be difficult to ascertain which images were used to train the AI systems because the art the systems generate won’t necessarily look exactly like any of the training images.

State-of-the-art image-generating systems like Stable Diffusion are what’s known as “diffusion” models. Diffusion models learn to create images from text prompts (e.g. “a sketch of a bird perched on a windowsill”) as they work their way through massive training datasets. The models are trained to “re-create” images as opposed to drawing them from scratch, starting with pure noise and refining the image over time to make it incrementally closer to the text prompt.

That bold underlined bit is important because of how art can be substantially similar & not be infringing. There is a good writeup on it complete with an example here that is very much worth reading. That substantially similar bar is part of why it orobably doesn't matter even if such images were used in training.
I don’t dispute that the diffusion model makes it difficult to prove that the images the AI generates are substantially similar to any given existing work to prove infringement. That doesn’t mean that training the AI on those images without compensating or even notifying their artists is ethical.
In short NBC (magnumPI)& Lucas film(Indiana Jones) have a rock solid case against Disney for decades of chip & dale doing whatever technical legal wrong may have been done by the AI if any of those lawsuits produce results of some form...
As I’ve said before, I don’t care to speculate on how the courts will rule on whether or not AI art is copyright infringement. Regardless of how that all shakes out, I see the way these algorithms are being trained as unethical, because of the way the art they are trained on is acquired. I’ve said a few times now that I think a hypothetical AI trained only on art that was purchased from or donated by the artists wouldn’t necessarily be unethical. I just don’t believe that will ever happen, hence the “if frogs had wings” idiom I initially responded to the notion with.
Well at least assuming that either of those two can meet the lofty bar of proving that it is not just a meme.
My dude, that specific image you posted was a meme, which is why I called it one. If you were asking about the TV show, that wasn’t clear from your post. Which I already explained, so bringing it up again as if I was calling the show a meme comes across as incredibly disingenuous.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
For anyone in Berkeley on 26-April-2023:

“Generative AI Meets Copyright” - Pamela Samuelson


The urgent questions today focus on whether ingesting in-copyright works as training data is copyright infringement and whether the outputs of AI programs are infringing derivative works of the ingested images. Four recent lawsuits, one involving GitHub's Copilot and three involving Stable Diffusion, will address these issues.

Ms. Samuelson is an excellent resource for explaining legal issues relating to copyrights. In particular, her work is well grounded in actual case law. She used to have a rather good semi-regular column in the Communications of the ACM, called “Legally Speaking”.

TomB
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Hmm, this is more an “are computers making actual” question than an “is training ai fair use” question. I think you are dodging the question by eliding from the second to the first.

If and when a trained AI could produce art, would using art to train the AI be fair use?

TomB
I’d say the answer to whether it is legal is currently unsettled so not a very interesting question.

The answer to whether it should be legal is a much more interesting question.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Ok, so to be clear, you’re claiming that common crawl compensated the artists of the works the AI was trained on for use of their art? How so?

I don’t dispute that the diffusion model makes it difficult to prove that the images the AI generates are substantially similar to any given existing work to prove infringement. That doesn’t mean that training the AI on those images without compensating or even notifying their artists is ethical.

As I’ve said before, I don’t care to speculate on how the courts will rule on whether or not AI art is copyright infringement. Regardless of how that all shakes out, I see the way these algorithms are being trained as unethical, because of the way the art they are trained on is acquired. I’ve said a few times now that I think a hypothetical AI trained only on art that was purchased from or donated by the artists wouldn’t necessarily be unethical. I just don’t believe that will ever happen, hence the “if frogs had wings” idiom I initially responded to the notion with.

My dude, that specific image you posted was a meme, which is why I called it one. If you were asking about the TV show, that wasn’t clear from your post. Which I already explained, so bringing it up again as if I was calling the show a meme comes across as incredibly disingenuous.
The artists were compensated by pintrest & the other sites in the form of free hosting I don't know how you could miss that by now without actively making an effort. Coincidentally that same effort was displayed when you were presented an example of humans doing the exact thing you faulted an AI for only to dismiss it as a meme to avoid the logic conflict. As an archive, Common Crawl doesn't do anything that requires compensation because "The Common Crawl dataset includes copyrighted work and is distributed from the US under fair use claims. Researchers in other countries have made use of techniques such as shuffling sentences or referencing the common crawl dataset to work around copyright law in other legal jurisdictions" but it also follows robots.txt directives

For someone who doesn't "care to speculate on how the courts will rule", you've shown no hesitancy in declaring theft stealing unethical behavior & so on while taking stances as if that speculation was both done as well as decided in the manner most supportive of your position throughout the thread
 

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