So The Jester Made it In

[Tony Vargas]

IN 5E basic attacks are often quite good with things like raging Barbarians, Hunter Rangers and things with the sharpshooter/GWF feat.

There are no 'basic attacks' in 5e. If there were, they'd likely exclude some of those things. But, sure, there are a /few/ mechanics, like SA, that let a single attack stack up better than usual. 5e is a bit more fragile in some ways, like that, but it also gives the DM a bit more leeway to correct any issues that do crop up. In 3.5 if something was obviously broken, it was still RAW, in 4e it'd likely get errata'd in short order, but in 5e the DM can just rule against the broken aspect and smack it down to something appropriate, right then & there.

 

[mellored]

I have seen the Sorcerer using twin spell to haste 2 opponents and they can still spam cantrips

Which is more powerful then most of the warlords i've seen. Since the warlord needs to use their action, and the sorcerer needs to use concentration.

Assuming you mean allies. Hasting opponents would be... well...


Also, i think twinned greater invisibility is more powerful overall.

 

[mellored]

Just to throw out a few more at-will attack comparisons.

Commander's strike = takes 1 attack, a bonus action, and a reaction for 1 attack + a die. Enough to use it most rounds of combat. And you can still deal plenty of damage yourself.

Command (flee) = takes a save, and reaction (OA) but also stops 1 enemy action and gives multiple allies an attack. Enough to use each turn at higher levels.

Dissonant whispers = takes a save, and reactions, but also deals damage and gives multiple allies an attack. Enough to be used each turn at higher levels.


So... going by current standards.

At-will attack grant that takes a reaction seem perfectly reasonable at level 5.
At-will attack grant to everyone adjacent seems perfectly reasonable at level 11.
At-will attack grant to everyone seems perfectly reasonable at level 17.

 

[Zardnaar]

Just to throw out a few more at-will attack comparisons.

Commander's strike = takes 1 attack, a bonus action, and a reaction for 1 attack + a die. Enough to use it most rounds of combat. And you can still deal plenty of damage yourself.

Command (flee) = takes a save, and reaction (OA) but also stops 1 enemy action and gives multiple allies an attack. Enough to use each turn at higher levels.

Dissonant whispers = takes a save, and reactions, but also deals damage and gives multiple allies an attack. Enough to be used each turn at higher levels.


So... going by current standards.

At-will attack grant that takes a reaction seem perfectly reasonable at level 5.
At-will attack grant to everyone adjacent seems perfectly reasonable at level 11.
At-will attack grant to everyone seems perfectly reasonable at level 17.

Those still require resources though. They are daily effects. You could use them every combat at higher levels not every round. Dissonant whispers also deals middling damage if the save is made but its one of the few lvl 1 spells that scales well into the higher levels without having to use a higher level slot.

And I basically agree with regards to twinned greater invisabilty being the bomb as our sorcerers have figured that one out. We had a favoured soul and he started quickening haste on himself instead of twinning it although he does that sometimes.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Just to throw out a few more at-will attack comparisons.

How are those "at will?"

 

[ChrisCarlson]

To be blunt, I'm glad you are not the one creating 5e then. There's more to D&D than "tactics" (whatever that even means).

I agree.

I would pretty much only be able to do the balancing.

Then we get this...?

At-will attack grant that takes a reaction seem perfectly reasonable at level 5.
At-will attack grant to everyone adjacent seems perfectly reasonable at level 11.
At-will attack grant to everyone seems perfectly reasonable at level 17.

I believe your idea of "balance" confirms what we both believe, that you should not be the one designing 5e. I think these are absolutely horrible ideas.

 

[Zardnaar]

Granting a single attack at will might work. I tested out that Noble and in the right party its broken as hell and its a "weak" warlord.

 

[mellored]

Those still require resources though. They are daily effects. You could use them every combat at higher levels not every round.

There are about 12-15 rounds of combat in a day.
You have 16 spell slots by level 11. Enough to cast dissonant whispers/command every round of combat.
Level 11 is also capable of casting twin-haste every combat, with a few to spare.

Though i wouldn't want a warlord centered purely around granting attacks anymore then i would want a sorcerer who could only use twin-haste.

Dissonant whispers also deals middling damage if the save is made but its one of the few lvl 1 spells that scales well into the higher levels without having to use a higher level slot.

Command is probably too good.
Particularly the way it scales.

 

[Tony Vargas]

There are about 12-15 rounds of combat in a day.
You have 16 spell slots by level 11. Enough to cast dissonant whispers/command every round of combat.
Level 11 is also capable of casting twin-haste every combat, with a few to spare.

You're assuming combats average 2 rounds. That's not insane or anything, but I wouldn't bank on it.

Though i wouldn't want a warlord centered purely around granting attacks anymore then i would want a sorcerer who could only use twin-haste.

Of course not. Versatility is critical, both in the sense of capturing the Warlord's traditional role, and in the sense of capturing the concept, particularly the tactical side. A brilliant tactic isn't something you spend years mastering, then use every moment of ever every battle, like a Combat Style, they're a lot more situational and one-off than that, much more so even than maneuvers.

 

[Zardnaar]

There are about 12-15 rounds of combat in a day.
You have 16 spell slots by level 11. Enough to cast dissonant whispers/command every round of combat.
Level 11 is also capable of casting twin-haste every combat, with a few to spare.

Though i wouldn't want a warlord centered purely around granting attacks anymore then i would want a sorcerer who could only use twin-haste.

Command is probably too good.
Particularly the way it scales.

The default assumption is 6-8 encounters. Being generous 3 rounds that is 18-254 rounds. The spellcaster ones are also situational, require daily resources and the concentration mechanic.