So The Jester Made it In

If that's a sword & shield, he looks entirely to fight-y to pass for a "real" warlord. He should instead be sitting in a Lazy-Boy recliner, holding a pom-pom in one hand and a bullhorn in the other.

What?... ;)

Sorry that's a bag of popcorn and a quill. And he's wearing a nightcap. My hands shake a little.
 

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From the publishers of HotDQ is not exactly a ringing endorsement for me either as that adventure was bad lol.
Meh. Mocking HotDQ always feels like a cheap shot to me.
It wasn't great, but they were writing an adventure when the PHB wasn't finished, the MM was in flux and kept changing, and the DMG wasn't even started. They likely spent as much time accommodating the changing rules as fixing structural and story problems.
Plus, it was likely downsized from 256-pages to two 96-page books so they could get it out early leading to pages and pages being cut. Wolfgang Baur isn't even credited in Rise of Tiamat because he cut all his sections.

I'm very forgiving of the problems of that product as it's far, far better than I could have done under similar circumstances.

Key to selling on the DMGuild is a pretty cover.
It can help. But there's a lot of Copper and Silver sellers with plain text covers.
And if something is identified as a Work in Progress, it's pretty easy to accept a simple cover and formatting.
 

Hell one can duplicate 4E witht he existing OGL. I suspect the main reason a clone has not turned up is its not popular enough vs the amount of work required cloning an OSR game.
No, you can't, you can't even come close. You could clone 3.5 because the core was all sitting there in the SRD. You could clone earlier eds because the core of 3.5 wasn't that different from earlier eds - the old classes were there, their progressions were similar, the old spells were there at the same levels, you just tweaked things. 4e was locked up by comparison, you can't re-publish any of the core classes or their powers or the general rules or other content of the game like you can still do with 3.5, and can now even do with a sub-set of 5e.

You can't get a functional and balanced 4E type warlord in 45E due to the basic mechanical design of the edition as 5E is lower powered than 4E.
That is the exact opposite of what's true. 5e design is much looser-balanced, and higher-powered. A direct port of the 4e warlord would be non-viable for want of resources relative to the casters that currently handle comparable support contributions.

Zardnaar is accurate.
He is not, neither are you.

Rogues in 4e only ever did a couple extra d6 of damage, which was their sneak attack dice. That was their striker damage, and separated them from other classes, in addition to occasionally higher numbers in Encounter and Daily powers.
False. SA dice increased with Tier, at-will powers or features added additional damage, as well.

So you're not even going to support people trying to make content for you?
A fighter archetype disengenously posing as a warlord substitute is no such content.

I think that a very, very, very small number of people view the walord that way. Like under a dozen.
It's also a very edition war laden statement and I don't think many people care about the edition wars any more.
It's a very edition-war-laden topic. The Warlord was introduced in the 4e PH. It's the target of ongoing edition-warring.

People fight edition wars when they're unhappy, and there's just not enough people really unhappy now for the edition wars to matter. The people who like 3e have Pathfinder, the people who like 4e still have 4e, and everyone else has 5e which is doing gangbusters. The edition wars are over.
When 4e was the current edition, people who liked 4e had 4e, people who liked 3.5 had Pathfinder, and people who like older eds had OSR retro-clones. Everyone had what they wanted, but there was an edition war.

Ultimatums like that don't work.
On the contrary, WotC, in seemingly catering to the h4ter by killing 4e, made it look like such ultimatums worked, and by continuing to create that appearance by excluding the Warlord from 5e, they deepen that impression.


From the publishers of HotDQ is not exactly a ringing endorsement for me either as that adventure was bad lol.
1st module syndrome. It's become a thing.
 
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No, you can't, you can't even come close.
Make 4e with the SRD & OGL? Sure you can. Especially now that terms like "dragonborn", "warlock", and "advantage" are included.
You can't copy the existing formatting of powers, but you could tweak that slightly. It wouldn't take much to change "Encounter Power" to "Recharge: Short Rest". A few terms don't copy (like Healing Surge) but it would be easy to rename those something else. And since you can't copyright mechanics you could just take the 4e math and power structure overlay it onto the 5e rules.

I can't think of a single thing in the rules that you couldn't adapt through careful renaming and rephrasing.

The *only* thing stopping people from making a 4e Neo-Clone is time and a willingness to put in the effort.

That is the exact opposite of what's true. 5e design is much looser-balanced, and higher-powered. A direct port of the 4e warlord would be non-viable for want of resources relative to the casters that currently handle comparable support contributions.
5e has a looser balance, but there's still balance. There's just less symmetry. It really is a nice evolution of Essentials.
Casters aren't broken. They're good but not all-powerful. They only ever have 1 or 2 spells of their highest level, the equivalent of Daily powers. And far fewer spell slots compared to 3e.
In an encounter lite game with 2-3 fights per day a caster can certainly dominate. But it's easier to blow through all your spells in a standard adventuring day.

A 10th level caster has 15 spells. 2 "daily" spells at their max, and if there are four fights they effectively have three "encounter" spells they can use in each fight. Plus 3-4 spells to use for utility. Counted like that, a 5e caster doesn't really use *that* many more powers in a 4th Edition character.

False. SA dice increased with Tier, at-will powers or features added additional damage, as well.
SA dice increase by a marginal amount. The equivalent of a point or two of damage. Far less than the d6 every other level of rogues. While that balances reasonably well with the fighter's extra attack, the maneuver I was discussing replaces an attack, so the fighter gets all but one of their attacks and the rogue gets an extra turn. It comes at the cost of a reaction and bonus action, but it's pretty darn good.
It's trading an attack at level 10 dealing 1d12+1d10+15 (with a feat and thus lower chance to hit) for one dealing 6d6+1d10+5.
A BM fight has four dice. If they have a couple fights between short rests, the fighter and rogue could do their combo attack a couple times in an encounter. That's some pretty solid teamwork.

A fighter archetype disengenously posing as a warlord substitute is no such content.
I disagree.

It's a very edition-war-laden topic. The Warlord was introduced in the 4e PH. It's the target of ongoing edition-warring.
It was. Past tense. Extreme past tense.
The warlord was a part of 4e but you can discuss it on its own by its own merits just like you can discuss the pros and cons of thief-acrobat class without critiquing 1st Edition or getting into the 1e/2e Edition wars and T$R hate. I'm not slamming Gygax or Unearthed Arcana when I say there's problems with the thief-acrobat and it probably isn't distinct enough to warrant its own class.

When 4e was the current edition, people who liked 4e had 4e, people who liked 3.5 had Pathfinder, and people who like older eds had OSR retro-clones. Everyone had what they wanted, but there was an edition war.
Not quite the same. Initially there was no Pathfinder, and it took time to build an audience. And the division was stronger and more people felt disenfranchised. Plus, after 3e and the d20 boom, people were used to playing D&D, and less likely to look elsewhere.
Currently, the majority is happy and satisfied, so there's no edition war. The community is pretty damn positive. It's more positive than I've seen it in… well, ever. Most people are happy just playing the game and creating for the game. When problems with the game are brought up, it's seeking a fix or ruling rather than ranting "5e sux" or some such thing.
And people are more likely to look to other companies for games. More willing to try Pathfinder or FATE or Dread or Edge of the Empire.

On the contrary, WotC, in seemingly catering to the h4ter by killing 4e, made it look like such ultimatums worked, and by continuing to create that appearance by excluding the Warlord from 5e, they deepen that impression.
Using terms like "h4ter" is an attempt to propagate the edition war. No one else is using them. (Weren't you asked to stop using that term?) No one else is fighting the edition war but you. The fact that there's no 5e equivalent of "4venger" or "h4ter" (or whatever the 3e ones were again) speaks volumes. The terms are no longer relevant or needed.

WotC repeatedly catered to the wills of the fans. The strong majority of the fans. Because the vast majority of fans didn't give an eff about the edition war. The majority are happy just playing the most recent game.
WotC considered removing the warlock and sorcerer and making them part of a single magic user class. But the fanbase didn't like that idea so they changed their mind. Because it's sound business to give people what they want, and you don't stay in business if you ignore what your fans want.

The warlord didn't make the cut because fewer people cared about it than either the warlock and the sorcerer. Fewer people protested the absence. Period. Not because some imaginary conspiracy of edition warriors that wanted the warlord removed from the game and WotC obliged. Not to silence some faction of the fanbase.
 

Make 4e with the SRD & OGL? Sure you can. I can't think of a single thing in the rules that you couldn't adapt through careful renaming and rephrasing.
The *only* thing stopping people from making a 4e Neo-Clone is time and a willingness to put in the effort.
The effort is much greater than porting from the 3.5 SRD to Pathfinder the way Paizo did. It seems downright prohibitive, really.

5e has a looser balance, but there's still balance.
Balance is always a matter of degree, it's never perfect, it's rarely entirely absent (it's hard to scrub all meaningful/viable choice from a system), it might take a lot of system mastery to identify the viable options, but there's likely more than one.

5e has much looser balance, it's more concerned with evoking the classic game (which wasn't exactly a paragon of balance, either, of course) and other priorities. With an Empowered DM, balance can always be enforced, tailored to the specific player choices, campaign tone, and style.

Casters aren't broken. They're good but not all-powerful. They only ever have 1 or 2 spells of their highest level, the equivalent of Daily powers.
Not a valid equivalency. A daily power could be used once, you couldn't have a second use of it standing by, you couldn't swap it for a different one on the fly. Even if 5e spells weren't more potent than 4e powers, each slot is vastly more flexible in how you use it.
And far fewer spell slots compared to 3e.
A 3e wizard starts with 1 spell at first level, and progresses to 16 spells by 10th level. A 5e wizard starts with 2 spells at 1st level and progresses to 15 by 10th. The 3e wizard can get an extra spell per spell level by specializing (and loosing access to opposed schools) and/or by having high INT. With an 18 INT, he'd have 20 spells by 10th level. If 5 fewer spells over 10 level is 'vastly less,' what's 12 more spells over 10 levels?

In an encounter lite game with 2-3 fights per day a caster can certainly dominate.
In theory. And, in practice, such games seem pretty common, even 1-encounter days didn't seem that rare in some of the surveys we've seen here, compared to full 6-8 encounter days.

But it's easier to blow through all your spells in a standard adventuring day.
Easier than 3e? While you do have slightly fewer slots, you also have more flexibility in how you use them. A 3e prepped caster might prepare some spells at the beginning of the day that never come up, and are left un-cast at the end of the day. I guess he didn't 'blow through' his spells...

A 10th level caster has 15 spells. 2 "daily" spells at their max, and if there are four fights they effectively have three "encounter" spells they can use in each fight. Plus 3-4 spells to use for utility. Counted like that, a 5e caster doesn't really use *that* many more powers in a 4th Edition character.
OTOH, counted honestly, he can have five times as many high-impact daily 'attack' spells.

SA dice increase by a marginal amount. The equivalent of a point or two of damage.
One SA die was 3.5 or 4.5 on average. That's not a point or two.

the d6 every other level of rogues balances reasonably well with the fighter's extra attack
Nod.
the maneuver I was discussing replaces an attack, so the fighter gets all but one of their attacks and the rogue gets an extra turn. It comes at the cost of a reaction and bonus action, but it's pretty darn good.
About on par, in a relative sense, with a Warlord power like Surprise Attack (level 7 encounter, IIRC, worked very well with a Rogue ally).

It's trading an attack at level 10 dealing 1d12+1d10+15 (with a feat and thus lower chance to hit) for one dealing 6d6+1d10+5.
Conversely, it's not so great if given to another "best at fighting" fighter. 5e does have some issues of consistency that make it tricky to design an ability like that, the BM illustrates that it's tricky, sure, not that it's impossible or broken.

The warlord was a part of 4e but you can discuss it on its own by its own merits
It would be nice if that were true.
 

The effort is much greater than porting from the 3.5 SRD to Pathfinder the way Paizo did. It seems downright prohibitive, really.
I think you underestimate the work that went into Pathfinder.

But, yes, making a 4e clone would take more work than PF. But less than making an entire new game. Probably comparable to many of the other OSR games. And there are lots on the market.

Not a valid equivalency. A daily power could be used once, you couldn't have a second use of it standing by, you couldn't swap it for a different one on the fly. Even if 5e spells weren't more potent than 4e powers, each slot is vastly more flexible in how you use it.
Potentially more powerful. The wizard still only prepares so many spells and can only prepare half of their spells known. They'll likely prepare one go-to 5th level spell they expect to cast twice and one or two institutional spells that may or may not be used.
The wizard might have the perfect spell, or it might be in his book.

More than other classes, wizards are as powerful as the person running the character.

A 3e wizard starts with 1 spell at first level, and progresses to 16 spells by 10th level. A 5e wizard starts with 2 spells at 1st level and progresses to 15 by 10th. The 3e wizard can get an extra spell per spell level by specializing (and loosing access to opposed schools) and/or by having high INT. With an 18 INT, he'd have 20 spells by 10th level. If 5 fewer spells over 10 level is 'vastly less,' what's 12 more spells over 10 levels?
You forget magic items. A level 10 wizard would have an Int of 20 or 22. Easily. Three more spell slots including a 5th level.
23 vs 15. That's a 35% increase. And the difference only increases as 3e wizards just keep getting more and more slots while 5e wizards only get a handful.
Power level from level 12 on is reined waaaaay in.
 

I think you underestimate the work that went into Pathfinder.
Less than making an entire new game. And probably comparable to many of the other OSR games.
Quite possibly, but it was still cloning a game with all it's core stuff available in an SRD. However much work that might be, it'd be a great deal /more/ work to clone a game with it's core material still copyright protected.


Potentially more powerful. The wizard still only prepares so many spells and can only prepare half of their spells known. They'll likely prepare one go-to 5th level spell they expect to cast twice and one or two institutional spells that may or may not be used.
The 5e wizard might have the perfect spell, or it might be in his book.
But, even in the latter case, like a 3.5 Sorcerer, he can cast the best spell he does have access to, rather than, like a 3.5/earlier Wizard, find himself with never-needed spells still prepared at the end of the day. That essentially narrows the gap between the 16-20 or so spells-at-10th 3.x wizard and the "vastly less" 15-spells-at-10th 5e Wizard.

23 vs 15. That's a 35% increase.
15 vs 3, that's a 400% increase.

The 5e wizard is just lot closer to the 3.5 wizard in gross spellcasting resources. Neo-Vancian casting means that he's also much more flexible than both 3.5 and 4e.

Power level from level 12 on is reined waaaaay in.
And, notoriously, D&D generally gets played through about 10th level. But it is reined way in from 32 spells plus maybe a dozen bonus spells from crazy INT, all the way down to 22. That's better than half-again, could even be double. Of course, compared to 4e, that's 22 spells with supreme flexibility vs 4 dailies, exactly once each. 5x the resources. Porting from 4e to 5e just necessarily requires some serious upgrades to keep up with that.
 

SA dice increase by a marginal amount. The equivalent of a point or two of damage.
You've said this several times. (So has [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION].) I don't follow it, though.

In 4e, a rogue's sneak attack dice are +2d6 at 1st, +3d6 at 11th and +5d6 at 21st. That's (on average) +7, +10.5 and +17.5 damage per attack. How is that "a marginal amount" or "the equivalent of a point or two of damage"?
 

You've said this several times. (So has [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION].) I don't follow it, though.

In 4e, a rogue's sneak attack dice are +2d6 at 1st, +3d6 at 11th and +5d6 at 21st. That's (on average) +7, +10.5 and +17.5 damage per attack. How is that "a marginal amount" or "the equivalent of a point or two of damage"?
SA increases by 3.5 at level 11 and 7 at level 21. That's not a lot overall. Not compared to 3.5 every other level.
Striker damage in general was higher than other characters' in 4e, but not *that* much higher. Everyone increased at roughly the same rate and sneak attack/ curse/ quarry let the strikers deal more. It was a minor increase.

But damage between DPR characters and non-offensive characters in base 5e is much more disparate. Which makes granting an attack have a much wider variance in damage dealt compared to a leader and striker in 4e.
 

Striker damage in general was higher than other characters' in 4e, but not *that* much higher. Everyone increased at roughly the same rate and sneak attack/ curse/ quarry let the strikers deal more. It was a minor increase.
I think this depends a lot on build details.

The highest-damage PC in my (30th level) 4e game is the sorcerer, whose at-will is a Blazing Starfall that does 2d4 (with re-rolls, so averaging somewhere above 5) plus around 50 in static mods. The lowest damage PC is the invoker, whose damage isn't very different between at-wills and limited-use powers, which tend to do a couple of dice plus 15 or so in static mods. Of the more martial PCs, the ranger generally does less damage per attack than the sorcerer but gets more attacks (due to off-turn actions) - damage tends to be two or three d12 plus 20-ish in static mods (less for each component of Twin Strike because there's no stat mod); the fighter tends to roll 4d8 (using an over-sized brutal maul) and add 20-ish in static mods; and the paladin starts with a pretty low damage base (2d8 plus 20-ish) but (due to items) has a +12 or so to damage against bloodied targets.

That makes damage averages in the neighbourhood of Sorcerer 55 to 60 (typically with AoE); Ranger 50-ish from Twin Strike (but with a more reliable floor due to two chances to land Quarry damage) plus off-turn damage of 30-ish (including more chances to land Quarry damage), but all single target; Fighter 40-ish (typically with AoE, via encounter powers); Paladin 25 to 30, but lifting to 40-ish against bloodied target and/or if he gets his frost-cheese working (mostly single target); Invoker 20-ish (typically with AoE).

The sorcerer's +12 to damage from striker class feature, on its own, is equal to about 50% of the invoker's average damage.

I don't have enough 3E experience to know how big the damage differentials are in that system. But the differences I've pointed to are pretty noticeable in play (and not just at 30th level; the pattern has been pretty constant for most of the game, although the availability of AoEs to the fighter took a while to peak).
 

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