Pathfinder 1E So the question is... why is pathfinder selling so well?

[DMZ2112]

I don't agree with it either. I love pathfinder, I just want to know why people are still playing it, why would anyone play it if it's broken beyond repair as the internet claims it is. I really want to know.

Good gods, man -- plenty of people still play RIFTS after 24 years, and the only reason why that game isn't "broken beyond repair" is because in order to be broken you must first be in working order.

By comparison, Pathfinder just needs a firm hand on the tiller. People just like to complain about the things they enjoy; it's human nature.

 

[Echohawk]

Hmmmm... I can come up with a few reasons:

1. ENWorld is not representative of the broader RPG-buying public. I think it is more representative of hard-core gamers, and hard-core gamers care a lot more about rules systems than the average customer in a game store. Ergo, they are more likely to point out and discuss problems with any given RPG.

2. By their nature, rules discussions of almost any game system tend to provoke criticism of that game systems. Participants in such threads have sufficiently strong opinions for them to make the effort to post. People who think a particular system is fine generally don't care enough to participate in discussions of perceived problems with the system.

3. Pathfinder is probably the most popular RPG in the market right now. That means it will get discussed more. There are plenty of RPGs that are a lot more unplayable than Pathfinder, but they have fewer players, so you'll see much less critical discussion of those systems. In other words, Pathfinder may appear to be criticised more exactly because it is so popular.

4. Pathfinder products are of a very high quality despite any problems with the rules system. I don't play Pathfinder, but I buy a lot of Pathfinder products, because they have great artwork, wonderful maps, and inspiring story ideas, all of which I can steal for use in my game of choice.

5. Your perception that every thread devolves into criticism of Pathfinder may be wrong. I'm a regular ENWorld visitor, and my experience does not match yours.

 

[delericho]

So, it seems that pretty much every thread on here devolves into how irredeemably awful and broken beyond repair pathfinder is.

By and large, the people who decry it as "irredeemably awful and broken" are not the people buying it in droves.

(I should note that that doesn't mean that the people who are buying consider it to be perfect. There's a middle ground there!)

So why is it the most successful product in the tabletop RPG world right now?

Several reasons.

Firstly, Paizo are, quite simply, a class act all around. They produce a wide range of products, all of very high production standard, and a great many of which are excellent all-around. Their customer service is the best of any company I've ever dealt with, period. They're very clearly a company run by gamers, for gamers, with a deep knowledge of, and love of, both the game and the literature that underpins it (that is, Appendix N, and its more recent equivalents).

But that's not all.

Paizo also got off to a flying start for (I think) three reasons: firstly, they inherited the database of Dragon subscribers, meaning they had a large initial audience, many of whom would at least consider what they offered. Secondly, they benefitted from the anger WotC engendered when they cancelled the mags (whether that anger was deserved or not is irrelevant here - it was real, and it benefitted Paizo). And, thirdly, "Burnt Offerings" (Pathfinder #1) was a truly exceptional product - they needed that first product to be a good one, and they nailed it.

Paizo have also been smart enough to see the value of subscriptions, and also were in the fortunate position of being set up to handle subscriptions from Day One (thanks to Dragon). The advantage of subscriptions is huge - it gives confidence that the next product will sell, it gives them a clear indication of how many copies to print, and it also means they don't need to market and sell each product individually (they only have to make sure their subscribers aren't motivated to quit). This, in turn, allows them to take some risks that another company wouldn't dare (such as "Rasputin Must Die!"), which further feeds into the virtuous circle they've got going on.

The short version: they had some advantages to start, they did a lot of things right, and they found ways to make their successes feed further success.

 

[Morrus]

You are absolutely correct that one thread is not a consensus, I'd drop the question if that were the case. The truth is though, anywhere you go be it Wizards forums, Paizo's forums, /tg/, here at enworld, gamefaqs' tabletop forum people are discussing similar issues about the brokenness of the game. I'd find it hard to believe that people have never run into this before.

Confirmation bias. For some reason you're remembering all the negative stuff, and not the tons and tons of positive stuff.

 

[DEFCON 1]

So, it seems that pretty much every thread on here devolves into how irredeemably awful and broken beyond repair pathfinder is. So why is it the most successful product in the tabletop RPG world right now? I'm pretty sure the answer here is something along the lines of starting with 3.5 and justify keeping all the old books, or something along those lines. But that really doesn't fit the crime, or in this case the terrible quality of the pathfinder system. If it's so god awful beyond help why are people still buying this stuff in droves? I mean, the way it's talked about here makes it seem virtually unplayable that everyone would abandon ship to something else.

Thoughts?

Well, let's remember a couple things here as we delve into this. First... just because we might be able to say it is currently the "most successful product in the tabletop RPG world right now" (if we look at ICv2 rankings or whatnot)... doesn't really mean much of anything. Because we have no way of knowing just how much they are selling. People aren't "buying this stuff in droves" necessarily. They might be ranked first, but that doesn't mean they are selling huge amounts of product. Maybe they are. Or maybe they aren't. We have no way of knowing. To paraphrase a Dennis Miller joke, being first right now in the marketplace might be like being the Valedictorian of summer school.

Secondly... what Pathfinder players are experiencing is really nothing new. It happens with all games. Any game you play consistently... one that you become more and more experienced with and one where you truly learn the game's particular idiosyncracies that you eventually go on to completely master... the more likely the flaws in the game will widen. This is especially true when you also begin to add new and shiny bits into it that help widen the cracks in the foundation of the game.

But there's nothing wrong with pointing those things out-- nor asking for advice on how to patch those cracks in. You can't put the genie back in the bottle... so you will never recapture the feeling of playing Pathfinder for the first time-- not being an absolute authority on it, not knowing exactly how Part A needs to be paired with Part F so that Parts M, R and Y work together to produce result Z. And much of the complaints I'm sure people are having are that the equation of (A + F) x (M + R + Y) = Z has now become rote. It's no longer fantastical. It's no longer this awesome thing that they figured out as they played... it's a standard issue. It's the carrying of a 10' pole. 40 years ago it was a brilliant tactic to get around the deadly DM concept of the 'pit trap'... but nowadays its a bland and overused trope.

So people are probably just losing the sheen of newness and coolness from Pathfinder, just like they have for almost every other game they play. It happens. And it explains perfectly why people move to new games, and why companies produce new editions-- to re-attract players looking to recapture the feeling of "newness" and not knowing everything there is to know about a game (which therein lies the path to eventual boredom and complaint.)

 

[Bluenose]

Some people like buying stuff, particularly people used to the release schedule of D&D. Paizo make lots of stuff. Other companies make a lot less, or spread it over several lines. The people who like buying stuff gravitate of Pathfinder. That it's generally "good enough" to satisfy means they carry on buying it.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

So, it seems that pretty much every thread on here devolves into how irredeemably awful and broken beyond repair pathfinder is. So why is it the most successful product in the tabletop RPG world right now? I'm pretty sure the answer here is something along the lines of starting with 3.5 and justify keeping all the old books, or something along those lines. But that really doesn't fit the crime, or in this case the terrible quality of the pathfinder system. If it's so god awful beyond help why are people still buying this stuff in droves? I mean, the way it's talked about here makes it seem virtually unplayable that everyone would abandon ship to something else.

Thoughts?

Because Paizo is giving the people what they want instead of what they think people want and how to shove it down their throats.

 

[Tuft]

So, it seems that pretty much every thread on here devolves into how irredeemably awful and broken beyond repair pathfinder is. So why is it the most successful product in the tabletop RPG world right now? I'm pretty sure the answer here is something along the lines of starting with 3.5 and justify keeping all the old books, or something along those lines. But that really doesn't fit the crime, or in this case the terrible quality of the pathfinder system. If it's so god awful beyond help why are people still buying this stuff in droves? I mean, the way it's talked about here makes it seem virtually unplayable that everyone would abandon ship to something else.

Thoughts?

Because those who do like it and dont see much problems with it just play it and don't hang around in internet forums to complain?

Whenever one of the tech news sites publish some news about the iPhone, the comment section is filled with Android fans that speak loudly about the terrible brokenness of "the walled garden" and "lock-in" - and some iPhone defenders who don't see those things as problems. Whenever they publish something about Android, you get iPhone fans talking about the brokenness of "fragmentation", "insufficient protection against trojans", "slow update penetration" - and Android fans who don't see those things as problems.

What to some may be seen as a big problem, can by others be seen as a non-issue.

If you want to see at the big picture, you just have to see how people vote with their feet.

 

[I'm A Banana]

A game's quality is a poor predictor of its economic success. It's an influence -- sometimes a big one, since a crappy system can decimate a more indie game, for instance -- but consumers are not beings of naked logic who only ever behave in a way that produces the best outcome for them.

So the thesis that if Pathfinder was such a bad game, it wouldn't sell very well is flawed. As would be it's implication that if Pathfinder sells well, it must be a high-quality game. Not necessarily the case.

Pathfinder is demonstrably a pretty solid game. Which isn't to say perfect, but it's solid -- probably roughly as solid as any other #1 game was in their prime (D&D, World of Darkness). It doesn't chase people away with its flaws (unlike, say RIFTS can).

What flaws it does have might get highlighted in discussions on a board of pretty hardcore gamers (ENWorld is this kind of board!), but you could say the same thing about convos about 4e. Big fans of games are big critics of things they don't like about games, BECAUSE they're big fans of games.

The only time that becomes an issue is when the criticisms leave the sphere of game-talk and enter the sphere of tribalistic sniping and attack.

Say PF has a lot of rules bloat or that 4e is "too much like a videogame," okay, that's something reasonable people can talk about. Say PF is just for people afraid of change or 4e was a mistake to even make....that's leaving the realm of conversation and entering the realm of internet shouting match.

And if you see that, that's what the little "report this post" button is for.

 

[Wicht]

You are absolutely correct that one thread is not a consensus, I'd drop the question if that were the case. The truth is though, anywhere you go be it Wizards forums, Paizo's forums, /tg/, here at enworld, gamefaqs' tabletop forum people are discussing similar issues about the brokenness of the game. I'd find it hard to believe that people have never run into this before.

I think you will find, if you examine the threads in question, that it is the same people making the same complaints in multiple threads and they are just consistent in their dislike of Pathfinder, and in some cases, their dislike of its success. The frequency of their posts is noteworthy, but the depth of support for the opinions and the passion of those opinions is not quite as broad as their activity might suggest.

As for why Pathfinder sells well...

• Paizo is a good company and they make pretty books.
  
• The game is fun.
  
• The game is flexible.
  
• The game is reasonably balanced
  
• The game is well supported by both Paizo and 3pp.
  
• There is an active community supporting the game so that you can find gaming groups.
  
• But, in the end, the main reason it sells well is because a lot of people want to play it and enjoy playing it.