D&D 3E/3.5 So, what's for the finesse character in 3.5?

[Destil]

My jack of all trades dude had 15 strength and 20 dex (and a DM who gave out NO statboosters and ruled zero the stat increases, but that's another topic). Don't you think Finesse was nice for him?

+3 to attack (+5 vs +2)... not bad. The real boost of Finnese is that is improves as your Dex improves, though... in a game with no stat increases it's much less useful. In a game like that with thoes stats I'd have just gone with archery or soemthing, myself... (barring further use of rule 0)

 

[DiFier]

To me it seems that powerattack and weapon finesse are kinda opisites. With weapon finesse you don't use strength (power) for you attacks but dexterity. I don't think I would allow powerattack to be used with finesse anyway. how can you add power when you are not using it in the first place.

I get the feeling from the above posts that a lot of people are going to disagree with me. but it seems to me that is what the designers orignally wanted and are trying to get in 3.5

 

[CrimsonTemplar]

To me it seems that powerattack and weapon finesse are kinda opisites. With weapon finesse you don't use strength (power) for you attacks but dexterity. I don't think I would allow powerattack to be used with finesse anyway. how can you add power when you are not using it in the first place.

I get the feeling from the above posts that a lot of people are going to disagree with me. but it seems to me that is what the designers orignally wanted and are trying to get in 3.5

You make a good point & now that I think about it that way I can see why they made the change to Power Attack in 3.5.

 

[coyote6]

To me it seems that powerattack and weapon finesse are kinda opisites. With weapon finesse you don't use strength (power) for you attacks but dexterity. I don't think I would allow powerattack to be used with finesse anyway. how can you add power when you are not using it in the first place.

I get the feeling from the above posts that a lot of people are going to disagree with me. but it seems to me that is what the designers orignally wanted and are trying to get in 3.5

That fits from a flavor perspective, but from a mechanical perspective, it penalizes the finesse fighter. He'll never be able to deal as much damage (and thus be as effective a fighter) as his high-Str pal.

The best solution may be a new feat, one mechanically identical to Power Attack (-x to attack, +x to damage*), but with different prereqs (probably Weapon Finesse rather than Str 13+) -- call it "Deadly Accuracy", perhaps.

*(Of course, given the new Power Attack, maybe it should be +2x to damage. )

 

[hazmat]

I disagree. I think that Power Attack and Weapon Finesse are definitely compatible.

Power Attack is all about giving up a some of your accuracy to do a more damage. I see no problem with finessing your way through someone's defense so that you can try to drive home the point of your sword.

It's like their are two phases to the strike. There's getting to the point where you think you have an opening, and then trying to capitalize on the opening. Weapon finesse applies to the first phase and Power attack applies to the second phase.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

I don't think that "finesse fighter" is an archetype.

There are lots of basic character types who use finesse:

The two-shortsword fighter may use finesse. What does 3.5 give him? A more favorable attack progression, GWS and GWF if he's a fighter, and one fewer feat to spend.

The rapier-rogue may use finesse. The PA change doesn't affect him, though I'd be very surprised if PA was ever worthwhile to him -- Sneak Attack is his damage source, not PA.

The chain-fighter may use finesse. He's advantaged by the PA change.

The archer may use a finessed shortsword as a back-up weapon. I don't think that 3.5 gives him anything for that, though he gets Multishot and Improved Precise Shot for his primary style.

There are probably other characters who use finesse. One thing that I don't think that the 3.x D&D has ever really supported is the fighter who uses a one-handed weapon in one hand, and the other hand free (a fairly classic swashbuckling style) -- the philosophy seems to be that if your hand is free, it could be doing something more useful.

Eerily enough, this may actually be realistic (in D&D? Say it ain't so!), but I wouldn't mind seeing it changed, maybe through a feat progression.

 

[hazmat]

I disagree. I think that Power Attack and Weapon Finesse are definitely compatible.

Power Attack is all about giving up a some of your accuracy to do a more damage. I see no problem with finessing your way through someone's defense so that you can try to drive home the point of your sword.

It's like their are two phases to the strike. There's getting to the point where you think you have an opening, and then trying to capitalize on the opening. Weapon finesse applies to the first phase and Power attack applies to the second phase.

 

[Will]

What would be cool is a 'edge on fighting' feat... say, +1 dodge bonus if your off-hand is unoccupied (no buckler nor spells)

That is, fencing, which has the advantage of showing a smaller profile, but doesn't allow two-handed attacks or two weapon fighting.

Though you could, like some fencing styles, shift from edge-on to attacking with a second weapon.

mmm.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

What would be cool is a 'edge on fighting' feat... say, +1 dodge bonus if your off-hand is unoccupied (no buckler nor spells)

That is, fencing, which has the advantage of showing a smaller profile, but doesn't allow two-handed attacks or two weapon fighting.

Similar to the old AD&D2 concept of "one-weapon style" specialization, which gave an AC bonus.

How-evah, I'd be inclined not to do that in 3.5, for the simple reason that TWF now has "off-hand defense," which gives an AC bonus, and it seems that too many styles would be edging in on the same niche.

Some other concepts might be an initiative bonus, or even a concept that I've played around with a few times, the "stepping lunge," whereby, essentially, you threaten an area within a 10' reach, at some cost (like, an AC or attack penalty, or both), to represent the quick, highly extended lunges of some fencing styles.

There's also disarm-focused stuff, since there is a natural advantage to disarming if you have a hand free (you get the weapon).

What I'd stay away from: Damage bonuses (infringes on big-weapon and two-weapon niches), AC bonuses (infringes on sword-and-board and, to a lesser extent, two-weapon niches).

 

[Number47]

Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows are for the open-hand fighter.