D&D 3E/3.5 So what's the BIG diff between 4E and 3E? (Remembering 2E-3E transition...)

[The_Universe]

I think the way that magic is going to work is really going to distinguish it from past editions. It seems to be the thing that's least like it's previous incarnations(s).

 

[Delta]

That's a fact? Who said that? Link please.

Zarathustran reported this from a seminar ( http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204965 ):

In the saturday 4E seminar James pointed out that in the new edition, even first level D&D characters are Heroes. Right out the gate, they are head and shoulders above the local populace. This is no longer a game where your first level character can be dropped by a single hit from a peasant's club.

From a practical standpoint, I'm guessing this means that 1st level 4E characters are comparable to 2nd or 3rd level 3E characters. 1st level 4E characters aren't wimps. They're heroes and adventurers.

Main page reports this (note Star Wars Saga has 1st-level characters with 3HD, http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e ):

Star Wars Saga Edition and Book of Nine Swords were both "significant previews" of 4th Edition.

 

[Nikosandros]

4E is to 3E as 2E was to 1E.


Yes, I think that's about right.

I disagree. 1e and 2e were extremely similar and you can easily mix and match between them.

 

[Arkhandus]

I disagree. 1e and 2e were extremely similar and you can easily mix and match between them.

Yep. 1E and 2E were very similar, unlike 3E and 4E, which each hold substantial changes. I do not expect much of anything will be compatible between 3 and 4 E. Although it is possible that some feats will coincidentally be compatible, assuming they don't replace/change every old feat name/special ability name/etc. for 4th Edition. But then, most will probably be incompatible given the drastic changes.

 

[Arkhandus]

Zarathustran reported this from a seminar ( http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204965 ):

Main page reports this (note Star Wars Saga has 1st-level characters with 3HD, http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e ):

Yeah, which indicates it'll be a step backwards to something like 2E and earlier editions, where most NPCs were 0-level weakling nobodies. Not like other things in 4E aren't already going to mess with verisimiltude. :\

 

[Arkhandus]

Regarding the OP: Naah, it's definitely a separate Edition, though based roughly on 3E in the same way 3E is based roughly on 2E (using some of the basic tropes but changing a lot else).

Except it's not such a definitely-positive edition change as 3E was (which was really needed at the time); this is not really a seriously-needed overhaul or anything, but rather just a bunch of changes, some good and some questionable (good in the eyes of some, but bad in the eyes of others).

I think the difference is that 4E is trying to be too video-gamish, to appeal more to a different crowd. 3E wasn't really trying to change the game's premise or basic gameplay, just improve it. 4E is more significantly geared towards changing the way the game is played and the kind of people it will appeal to.

 

[hong]

Yeah, which indicates it'll be a step backwards to something like 2E and earlier editions, where most NPCs were 0-level weakling nobodies. Not like other things in 4E aren't already going to mess with verisimiltude. :\

A 0-level weakling nobody == a 1st level weakling nobody, plus or minus 1.

 

[robotron666]

most likely, talents.
It looks like 4e is going to go from around 7 choices for character customization to over 20. Thats a plus.
The negative is that if they go with the SAGA version of things, theres really no difference between the base classes other than what talents are available. I'd hope that each class has a small list of actual class abilities on top of selectable talent trees.

On the issue of race, I wonder if we're going to get a number of 'racial talent' slots at certain character levels. I cant see spending class granted talents on racial abilities.

Talents are one route of player expression, I expect the various power sources (martial, arcane, and divine) and associate special powers and abilities will create even more branches of choice for customizing characters. Stack that with feats, and you get a lot of potential variation in each class.

I have a feeling that we're not going to see paragon style racial classes, but talent picks from racial trees that expand the choices you can make in other areas like spells, special abilities, and gateways to various martial abilities. I have no idea how those will be selected though, they may be an integral part of the character progression table or they might be freebies. No idea since the PHB isn't out yet.

Edit:

Oh, and as an aside I'm all for 1st level characters with more hit points. I think SW Saga Edition has got that right. Among other things.

 

[robotron666]

Regarding the OP: Naah, it's definitely a separate Edition, though based roughly on 3E in the same way 3E is based roughly on 2E (using some of the basic tropes but changing a lot else).

4E uses the d20 rules the same as 3E. The difference is that many of the obstacles to play are being removed. It's an iterative step in how the game is designed. It makes sense really, there are a lot of points of D&D that have been used for ages even though they aren't fun.

Grapple, Vancian magic, forced resting conditions breaking play, character classes that lack flexibility or utility. These are all things that exist in 3e that need addressing.

Except it's not such a definitely-positive edition change as 3E was (which was really needed at the time); this is not really a seriously-needed overhaul or anything, but rather just a bunch of changes, some good and some questionable (good in the eyes of some, but bad in the eyes of others).

I see this as a pretty negative opinion. The design changes in SW Saga edition are really strong improvements to play. If that is a taste of things to come, I think that 4e is going to rock. As for not being a seriously needed overhaul, I disagree, it's about time someone stepped up and obliterated the old grognard style of play. Make the game more accessible and give me the ability to make my character unique to me, I want to express myself through the game in more ways than just rp'ing. How I build my character is as big a part of that, and if 4e gives me the power to mke my PC more unique, hell yeah, I'm all for it.

I think the difference is that 4E is trying to be too video-gamish, to appeal more to a different crowd. 3E wasn't really trying to change the game's premise or basic gameplay, just improve it. 4E is more significantly geared towards changing the way the game is played and the kind of people it will appeal to.

I'd agree that it is trying to be more like a video game in that it is easy to pick up and play. There is nothing wrong with making a game more accessible, some might argue otherwise, but hey, the more players the better the hobby tends to get, generally.

I do agree that 4e is geared to changing how the game is played and who it will appeal too. I'm a hardcore gamer, been playing D&D for 24 years. Frankly I'm excited about what's coming up in the next few months.

 

[Glyfair]

(1) The fact that it won't be possible to convert characters.

And when they stated they were originally not going to give a guide, the said the reason was that the 3E conversion guidelines didn't really work and didn't do what they wanted (or what the players wanted). They weren't suggesting the 4E was harder than 3E. Just that they learned that it didn't work when 3E came out.

Zarathustran reported this from a seminar ( http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204965 ):

Main page reports this (note Star Wars Saga has 1st-level characters with 3HD, http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e ):

Neither of which states that first level characters in 4E will get 3HD. It's not a "fact" (at least from out POV). It might be something that's likely, but there are also other ways they might go.