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Ah, different contexts! I've not played in that kind of situation, but I can see how it could work out very different in that kind of gaming situation.
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Social mechanics example
- Thread starter Katemare
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Ah, different contexts! I've not played in that kind of situation, but I can see how it could work out very different in that kind of gaming situation.
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I don't find that example particularly appealing. Its worth separating out the neat ideas and roleplaying decisions from the actual mechanical aspects- I totally endorse things like using your family's reputation for honor to convince others that you're not a liar, or sending your friends to gossip positively about you. I'm just not convinced that you need a mechanical overlay.
Honestly, I'm only half convinced on skills like Diplomacy.
Honestly, I'm only half convinced on skills like Diplomacy.
MichaelSomething
Legend
Some people are happy if they only need to roll once in a while and mostly talk during roleplaying.
Some people are happy if they use roll plenty of dice for a detailed system during roleplaying.
The question is which group is willing to spend more on books supporting their style of play...
Some people are happy if they use roll plenty of dice for a detailed system during roleplaying.
The question is which group is willing to spend more on books supporting their style of play...
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
I thought I would find both examples ridiculous. I certainly find the first example so ludicrous it is painful to read, let alone imagine participating in a game like that.
The second example, on the other hand, seems much more interesting. When I went back and re-read it to be fair, it sounded like it flowed and told a good story. It also helps that, for the most part, it operates at a level of abstraction that allows gossip, innuendo and reputation to be a part of the encounter so you don't imagine that every roll represents a specific speech.
That said, I would be extremely wary about adopting such an approach in an actual game. The immense challenge of using and applying such a system would be to make the system reward and punish the right strategies in the right situations. A system for simulating modern combat that made mass charges over open ground against machine gun emplacements a good idea would be a bad system. It seems difficult to believe that a system for codifying the far more complex world of social interactions would not inevitably end up with situations that are equally ridiculous. Family honor works as a defensive ability in a fictional tribal society. Transplant that system into 21st century San Francisco and it seems pretty silly. I am sure that most attributes, benefits or abilities you could come up with would be similarly culturally dependent. Which is fine until you want to model a crosscultural encounter or if you want to use the system outside of the specific, carefully crafted setting it is written for. An argument that convinces the Spartan elders might well be laughed out of the agora in Athens. (Though it would not necessarily work out that way--Alcibiades was equally effective or ineffective (depending upon your point of view) in both cities).
The second example, on the other hand, seems much more interesting. When I went back and re-read it to be fair, it sounded like it flowed and told a good story. It also helps that, for the most part, it operates at a level of abstraction that allows gossip, innuendo and reputation to be a part of the encounter so you don't imagine that every roll represents a specific speech.
That said, I would be extremely wary about adopting such an approach in an actual game. The immense challenge of using and applying such a system would be to make the system reward and punish the right strategies in the right situations. A system for simulating modern combat that made mass charges over open ground against machine gun emplacements a good idea would be a bad system. It seems difficult to believe that a system for codifying the far more complex world of social interactions would not inevitably end up with situations that are equally ridiculous. Family honor works as a defensive ability in a fictional tribal society. Transplant that system into 21st century San Francisco and it seems pretty silly. I am sure that most attributes, benefits or abilities you could come up with would be similarly culturally dependent. Which is fine until you want to model a crosscultural encounter or if you want to use the system outside of the specific, carefully crafted setting it is written for. An argument that convinces the Spartan elders might well be laughed out of the agora in Athens. (Though it would not necessarily work out that way--Alcibiades was equally effective or ineffective (depending upon your point of view) in both cities).
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Keen find, Katemare.
My own thing at the top is very rough, stream-of-conciousness, spur-of-the-moment kind of thing, so I'm not surprised that someone had the same idea and did it better.
I'm a little off-put by the complexity and math in the second example, but simplicity isn't too hard to achieve if that's your goal, and I'm also unfamiliar with it, so there's that hurdle. I like how it includes more character resources and choices than mine above, though. He gets to use his family's history, honor, and his own exploits in the encounter, which is really nifty and worth thinking about in more detail.
I do think it's key to note that both examples only cover actual contests/challenges/encounters/conflicts that get resolved. Banter with the villain and talking with random townsfolk isn't part of it, but this helps resolve a contest without DM fiat, which is a huge appeal from my side of things.
I'd be interested to know what specific traits film or novel dialogue has that you find missing, Mallus. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of room to make it mor similar without losing the main goal.
What specifically? Is it just the "every roll represents one line of dialogue" thing? (which, I agree, is probably too specific)
I'm not sure it would be any more inherently ridiculous than D&D's "using a knife against a person with full plate armor and a bastard sword can be very effective" combat. The idea is abstraction, and heroic fantasy. Maybe different cultures have different values, so they use and value different social skills (Diplomacy works in one; Intimidate is better in another; perhaps Bluff in a third)?
My own thing at the top is very rough, stream-of-conciousness, spur-of-the-moment kind of thing, so I'm not surprised that someone had the same idea and did it better.
I'm a little off-put by the complexity and math in the second example, but simplicity isn't too hard to achieve if that's your goal, and I'm also unfamiliar with it, so there's that hurdle. I like how it includes more character resources and choices than mine above, though. He gets to use his family's history, honor, and his own exploits in the encounter, which is really nifty and worth thinking about in more detail.
Mallus said:
I do think it's key to note that both examples only cover actual contests/challenges/encounters/conflicts that get resolved. Banter with the villain and talking with random townsfolk isn't part of it, but this helps resolve a contest without DM fiat, which is a huge appeal from my side of things.
I'd be interested to know what specific traits film or novel dialogue has that you find missing, Mallus. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of room to make it mor similar without losing the main goal.
Elder-Basilisk said:
What specifically? Is it just the "every roll represents one line of dialogue" thing? (which, I agree, is probably too specific)
Elder-Basilisk said:
I'm not sure it would be any more inherently ridiculous than D&D's "using a knife against a person with full plate armor and a bastard sword can be very effective" combat.
The idea is abstraction, and heroic fantasy. Maybe different cultures have different values, so they use and value different social skills (Diplomacy works in one; Intimidate is better in another; perhaps Bluff in a third)?Spirit of the Century/Dresden Files actually have social mechanics.
The interesting thing is that the Social rules are the same as the combat rules.
There are three types of Conflicts where you're opposing someone else: Mental, Physical, and Social.
The difference between them is what skill you're using. In Physical, you could be using Guns or Fists. In Social, you could be using Rapport or Deceit. In Mental, you could be using Conviction, or Research.
No matter the conflict, you can do damage to your opponent. So having a firey insult match could rattle your foe (weaken) for the oncoming combat.
The interesting thing is that the Social rules are the same as the combat rules.
There are three types of Conflicts where you're opposing someone else: Mental, Physical, and Social.
The difference between them is what skill you're using. In Physical, you could be using Guns or Fists. In Social, you could be using Rapport or Deceit. In Mental, you could be using Conviction, or Research.
No matter the conflict, you can do damage to your opponent. So having a firey insult match could rattle your foe (weaken) for the oncoming combat.
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