D&D General Social Pillar Mechanics: Where do you stand?

[MGibster]

So, major point on the niches - in my experience, the only class that usually fills the social interaction niche all on its own is the bard. Otherwise, folks have sufficient other things to do with their skill proficiencies that one character doesn't take all the skills while also having a high Charisma.

In my experience with 5th edition, usually any class expected to have a decent Charisma fills the social interaction niche. Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock being the top three with Paladin, Rogue, and Clerics sometimes stepping in.

I liberally allow positive modifiers or advantage when a character has a relevant class, background, and often other skill (like, if you are talking to a stonemasonry guild, and you know stonemasonry, well, that's an edge.)

I haven't done it with class, but seeing how it worked well in Baldur's Gate 3 I might start doing it. But I like giving players advantage because it makes them happy to know what choices they made creating their character matters and Advantage is an elegant option for a lazy DM like myself.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Name an edition that did not include supplements that added subsystems to the game that were not in the core books.

4th edition.

I'm also led to believe that one of the Basic editions was like that. At the very least, folks who stick exclusively to one of the Basic-only ones (never picking up Expert/Master/etc.) you'd have a hard time calling it a pile of bolt-on systems, because...I mean, you're specifically not taking any.

 

[Reynard]

That's literally what spotlight balance claims: that, by sharing the spotlight, each player gets about the same influence on the campaign.

Unless you mean to say that one person getting to roleplay and never actually do anything, while another player both roleplays and does things, is balanced? I don't really think that's a position you want to take, but...well, I've been wrong about that sort of thing before...

I was more thinking that some players are okay with, even more comfortable in, a sidekick style role. Like playing Lois or Jimmy to Superman. They are still on screen a lot, but not necessarily the mover.

 

[Reynard]

4th edition.

I don't know 4E well but didn't it have like 4 PHBs and DMGs? What was in those?

I'm also led to believe that one of the Basic editions was like that. At the very least, folks who stick exclusively to one of the Basic-only ones (never picking up Expert/Master/etc.) you'd have a hard time calling it a pile of bolt-on systems, because...I mean, you're specifically not taking any.

Not choosing to use it is different than the game not having it.

 

[Corinnguard]

i don't know how 'i'm flexible' is a good way of succeeding at social interaction but i do feel like some of the social skills could've been better distributed through the various stats, i know it's technically RAW to use alternate stats when it makes sense but i feel it would've been better if more stats were officially stated in the descriptions 'use X or Y stat to use Z skill', 'use STR or CHA for intimidation, use INT or CHA for persuasion, DEX or CHA for performance'

Level Up has it where you can use more than one ability score for a particular skill. So it all depends on how you describe your actions to the DM. From there, the DM decides which ability score you ought to use for the skill check.

Intimidation. A character makes an Intimidation check to alter someone’s behavior by frightening or threatening them. A single Intimidation check can also be used as part of an interrogation, though further checks rarely offer different results. The Narrator sets the DC of the check based on the target’s bravery and the circumstances of the check; some creatures can’t be intimidated. The most commonly used ability scores for Intimidation checks are Charisma (for verbal threats) and Strength (for physical threats). A character might use Wisdom to discern a creature’s weak point, and a spellcaster might use their spellcasting ability score to summon frightening energies

 

[Umbran]

In my experience with 5th edition, usually any class expected to have a decent Charisma fills the social interaction niche. Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock being the top three with Paladin, Rogue, and Clerics sometimes stepping in.

I have only seen Bards fully avail themselves of the niche. Sorcerers only get the two skill proficiencies. Warlocks also only get two, and don't even have Persuasion on their skill list.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

In my experience with 5th edition, usually any class expected to have a decent Charisma fills the social interaction niche. Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock being the top three with Paladin, Rogue, and Clerics sometimes stepping in.


I haven't done it with class, but seeing how it worked well in Baldur's Gate 3 I might start doing it. But I like giving players advantage because it makes them happy to know what choices they made creating their character matters and Advantage is an elegant option for a lazy DM like myself.

Have you ever run into a situation where a player already had Advantage, and thus you didn't have anything else you could give them?

I was more thinking that some players are okay with, even more comfortable in, a sidekick style role. Like playing Lois or Jimmy to Superman. They are still on screen a lot, but not necessarily the mover.

And they can elect to have that in a system that isn't balanced around a spotlight. Games that are predicated on a spotlight, however, do not allow for addressing the problem in ways that don't use the spotlight.

I don't know 4E well but didn't it have like 4 PHBs and DMGs? What was in those?

Additional classes, races, and feats for the former (3 PHBs, and the two "main" Essentials books, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms and Heroes of the Fallen Lands, which print what 5e would call alternate "subclasses" and "subraces" without printing the originals). The latter just adds more DM-side advice, useful DMing tools that aren't really rules, and reference materials.

To the best of my knowledge, no books added anything that I would consider a new subsystem. The closest thing might be like...the inclusion of more specific survival mechanics in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting? But I'm not really sure that that qualifies, since that's really more just...additional heft to the existing 4e mechanics for exhaustion and reasons for triggering it more often, IIRC.

Also, technically speaking, 4e had a policy that everything (first-party) was core. All the rulebooks, all the magazines, all the adventures, all the game day fun stuff. If it was in the Compendium, it was core--period. Whether you consider that mere sophistry or a serious commitment is up to you. Certainly, they did a very, very good job of keeping things balanced as if every book, magazine, etc. were core.

Not choosing to use it is different than the game not having it.

No, I mean like...if you stick with the original publication, there never were any. For example, the "Black Box" by Troy Denning. Rules Cyclopedia was also published that same year, but it's a separate product, lacking some of the low-level features the "Black Box" offers.

The "Black Box" really does just sort of...stop...at level 5. You can convert over to the Rules Cyclopedia (it isn't hard, they're nearly the same up to level 5), but there really are differences, or so I've been led to believe.

 

[cbwjm]

I have only seen Bards fully avail themselves of the niche. Sorcerers only get the two skill proficiencies. Warlocks also only get two, and don't even have Persuasion on their skill list.

If they're willing to burn an invocation, warlocks can add both deception and persuasion to their skills at level 2.

 

[Reynard]

And they can elect to have that in a system that isn't balanced around a spotlight. Games that are predicated on a spotlight, however, do not allow for addressing the problem in ways that don't use the spotlight.

I think we are using different definitions of "spotlight" here.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I have only seen Bards fully avail themselves of the niche. Sorcerers only get the two skill proficiencies. Warlocks also only get two, and don't even have Persuasion on their skill list.

While Warlocks may not get more than Deception and Intimidation on their own, there's an Invocation which gives both Deception and Persuasion, so you could take a background that gives Insight (lots of them do that!), take Intimidation and any other class skill, and then get Deception and Persuasion at level 2.

Admittedly, that does mean giving up an early Invocation, which might have gone to something powerful instead. But honestly, for what it is, it's pretty good. The 5.5e Warlock has it even better, with Lessons of the First Ones letting you pick up Skilled at level 2+, and it's repeatable, so you can get all sorts of goodies. (That invocation is actually one of the few things that makes me excited about playing 5th edition, as long as it's 5.5e. I can actually play a character that has decent stats AND some feats!!!)

I think we are using different definitions of "spotlight" here.

Okay. What does it mean then? Because what I had always understood "the spotlight" to mean is: Which character is currently acting, such that the focus of gameplay and attention is on them? That character has the spotlight. Other characters may be ancillary assistants, of course, but the character actually doing the important action is the one in the spotlight. E.g., a Fighter can be an ancillary assistant to a Wizard if the Wizard is the one casting a powerful spell, while the Fighter is keeping enemies at bay; or a Cleric can be an ancillary assistant to a Fighter, where the Fighter is carving a swathe through the baddies while the Cleric restores their HP.

The problem is, magic almost always steals the show. Intelligent use of magic pulls the spotlight to the spellcaster. Once all spells have been consumed, the party is at a significant disadvantage, especially if the spellcaster in question was the group healer. Hence, the party has a massive incentive to rest and restore the spellcaster's spells--at which point they can be used again for pulling the spotlight to the caster.

Non-spellcasters rarely, if ever, have the tools to achieve this.