Social Skills, starting to bug me.

[Mercurius]

Without having read anything but the OP, I basically agree. I've never liked social skill rolls actually trumping roleplaying.

I can't remember (or am to lazy to look up) the blog that had this, but there was this house rule called the "Virtual Roll" in which social situations were roleplayed and, rather than the player rolling a d20 for a social skill use, the DM rewarded a number from 1-20 based upon how well they roleplayed the situation (thus "virtual"). This effectively bypasses the randomness of rolling social skills and puts it firmly in the responsibility of the players to roleplay. On the other hand, it still allows some recognition for the fact that some players are bad at roleplaying, even if their characters are supposed to be good at it. In other words, you could have an introverted player playing a bard with high social skills, which will still modify whatever Virtual Roll the DM rewards.

Anyhow, think about it. Or google "Virtual Roll" and "D&D" and you should fine the blog. Good stuff, that.

 

[Elf Witch]

I see. I had thought in the past we were fairly likeminded in our opinions on this subject and I see that we actually are on virtually the same page. I'm glad we kept at this to be sure. Thanks. Since you brought it up, mind if I ask if RPGing assisted in your recovery? (And I'm not just asking after your health for the bonus on my posting check!)

Yes it did in so many ways.

My self confidence was in the toilet I was so helpless for a long time and unable to do my other hobbies like barrel racing , trail riding, working SF conventions. So starting gaming again allowed me to have social interactions that I needed.

Using the math involved in role playing helped get some of that skill back not a lot I can't do anything over multiplication without aide of a calculator. Before I could barely add having to figure THACO helped me reclaim my subtraction skills and it was far more fun than doing flash cards.

Role playing did help my verbal skills and my written skills. I could barely write today my grammar and spelling suck mainly because that area of my brain took the most damage. And relearning has been hard because I have an issue now retaining things unless I put a huge effort into it.

But wanting to be able to talk to others about gaming and to write character journals forced me to start using the part of my brain and I have seen improvement.

Role playing helps you solve complex issues and that is a good practice for brain injury victims. Playing computer and video games can be good if you don;t have my issue of hand eye coordination I get to frustrated with it. Though my rehab therapist tried to encourage me to do more because they have found that it helps.

DMing helps me overcome my fear of talking in front of people yes I get frustrated sometimes and the wrong words come out my players are great and understanding and that gives me the confidence to not be embarrassed as much as I used to be when my brain farts in public. So now if I ask for a large diet coke and a small giraffe at the theater I can laugh it off. Before it would have made me cry.

 

[Gilladian]

I guess (after having read about half the posts on this thread) I have a very different way of playing out social situations.

FIRST, I describe the situation to the PCs; for example - the king is holding court, you know his daughter has been ill but you've heard she's getting better, and you're here with your buddies to ask for funds for your next mission. And more details as appropriate (or not, if they already know all this).

SECOND, the PC describes roughly what points he'll be covering in his speech with the King (ie, he ignores the whole daughter issue as irrelevant vs spends several sentences defining how congratulatory he is). I decide what sort of "hitting all the bases" bonus or penalty the PC has earned. He rolls his dice, I roll mine, I explain how the King is reacting to the PC's conversation. The PC has a chance (if he wants to take it) to add or alter his strategy. Other PCs can chime in (if present and story-appropriate, of course) to strengthen the PC's story (ie roll to see if they can add a bonus). A second roll may be allowed if the alterations are important enough. I tell the PCs whether the discussion succeeded or failed, and by how much. They then proceed to spend the next 2-30 minutes roleplaying out the conversation, poking fun at each other, and having a grand time deciding exactly HOW the barbarian managed to get himself exiled from the king's presence AGAIN. Or whatever...

 

[Mark CMG]

Yes it did in so many ways.

My self confidence was in the toilet I was so helpless for a long time and unable to do my other hobbies like barrel racing , trail riding, working SF conventions. So starting gaming again allowed me to have social interactions that I needed.

Using the math involved in role playing helped get some of that skill back not a lot I can't do anything over multiplication without aide of a calculator. Before I could barely add having to figure THACO helped me reclaim my subtraction skills and it was far more fun than doing flash cards.

Role playing did help my verbal skills and my written skills. I could barely write today my grammar and spelling suck mainly because that area of my brain took the most damage. And relearning has been hard because I have an issue now retaining things unless I put a huge effort into it.

But wanting to be able to talk to others about gaming and to write character journals forced me to start using the part of my brain and I have seen improvement.

Role playing helps you solve complex issues and that is a good practice for brain injury victims. Playing computer and video games can be good if you don;t have my issue of hand eye coordination I get to frustrated with it. Though my rehab therapist tried to encourage me to do more because they have found that it helps.

DMing helps me overcome my fear of talking in front of people yes I get frustrated sometimes and the wrong words come out my players are great and understanding and that gives me the confidence to not be embarrassed as much as I used to be when my brain farts in public. So now if I ask for a large diet coke and a small giraffe at the theater I can laugh it off. Before it would have made me cry.

Thanks. It's good to hear that things have reached a tipping point in the positive direction. This is the kind of "I am/was a roleplay gamer" stories we need on the market rather than the ones that focus on the nerdiness. (Damn! Out of XP this 24 hour period . . .)


*edit* I wonder why I am feeling guilty that so many are feeling compelled to mention they aren't/haven't read many of the posts in this thread?

 

[ExploderWizard]

A player with a PC in combat may suck at tactics, but he can ALWAYS fall back on the roll of the die & the combat rules to help bail him out*. A player in a RPG without a system for simulating social skills has no such safety net.

I mean, I know jack all about the practice of martial arts beyond what media (movies, documentaries, books, comics, etc.) and a single day in a karate class have taught me, but I can still play a really cool martial artist in most game systems. Were combat handled the way some treat social skills, I'd be limited to playing brainy wallflowers with artistic talent.


* unless there's some RPG out there that bases combat results entirely upon what players actually know about combat.

There is a misunderstanding perhaps that those who prefer to play out RP encounters rather than use skill rolls all expect thier players to be experts at bluff/diplomacy, etc.

At least as far as I'm concerned this isn't the case. It is instead a question of avoiding " I diplomacy him" moments that suck the fun out of the game. The heart and soul of play is descibing what you do and saying what you want to say, getting a reaction/feedback and doing more of the same. Reducing this to a number defeats the point of play.

A character's charisma score can do a lot more work than it is given credit for. If a shy player is playing an 18 Cha character and making an effort then whatever is said is going to have a greater impact than the same ramblings from a 9 Cha character.

Likewise Joe smooth silver tongue who decided to put a 5 in Cha will find that his clever quips are not as well received as he thought they would be.

Ability scores ( and NOT just the bonuses) can count for so much more than recent iterations of the game have alloted them. More importantly they can do this while not denying a player a chance to meaningfully participate in gameplay beyond tossing dice.

 

[S'mon]

Have you ever played with someone who really has issues with this? It is not just taking forever to say something they often end up getting rattled and saying the wrong thing guaranteed to piss of the NPC or gets lost and wanders off topic. And some players can't pull off what you described as a mix of arrogance and respect that takes major social skills.

I accept that some people are bad at it. It's ok to accommodate them if that's what you want to do. That probably would not be my preferred approach - if your group are really as bad as you say, I might not enjoy playing with them. But I've played with a good number of very shy players - and I'm not exactly an extrovert myself, I rated 90% introverted on some online test - and nearly all of them have enjoyed my style, enjoyed having the chance to shine, and done well. IME the kind of issues you talk about are pretty rare. The exception was a guy who was rather creepy as well as shy, he was heavily into the occult and a practicing real-life chaos sorceror*. He chose to play a dashing charismatic swordsman, I gave him opportunities to step on up and wow people, awing the NPCs with his prowess, instead he reliably curled up and folded (12th level PC vs 1st level NPC guards) in a way that was cringingly embarrassing for everyone present. That was not fun - better if he'd played a creepy (low CHA) Necromancer or some such that fitted his actual personality.

*The time he claimed to have summoned the demon-spirit of Groucho Marx and (accidentally) brought it into my house was no fun. The session was a disaster, no one could focus, then the back door slammed and shattered the glass panel, nearly injuring one of the other players who was standing nearby.

 

[S'mon]

I guess for you it works in games with no skills my experience has been way different. I have found that without the skills people like me may try to play a smooth talking character, but we won't succeed so we stop trying and just stick to playing the same type character over and over, or quit and go to a system that has mechanical support for it.

Actually this reminds me of a female player in a sci-fi PBEM I ran, it was a strategic wargame with a roleplay element, each PC commanded a system's interstellar forces. This player, a friend of mine ([MENTION=6679831]AlphaSheWolf[/MENTION]), had the fantasy of playing a PC who was a good military commander, but had no interest in or ability to make actual military decisions. The game as designed by me required that ability, so she did not do well.

I don't think her desire was illegitimate, there was just a clash between her desire and my desire & intent as the game designer. Likewise if you have a fantasy of playing a PC who is a good communicator, but no interest in trying to be a good communicator yourself, that is a perfectly legitimate preference, it's just not one I share.

As to how D&D should be designed & run - I prefer my preference, you prefer yours. Neither of us are wrong. Luckily for you, Monte and the other 5e designers seem to share your preference.

 

[S'mon]

I don't think the DM was being a jerk I think he felt he could not fairly adjudicate how I did if I didn't play it out.

Yeah, I can certainly accept Mark's point that you can roleplay without speaking in character, but as DM I would normally want the players to speak in-character and respond likewise. Occasional exception if eg the players just can't accept me as an ingenue elf princess flirting with the dashing knight PC, if they're going to laugh at me I'll paraphrase her words if really necessary.

In general the getting-in-character and talking-in-character is something I really enjoy as GM and player, it's a major part of the game's pleasure for me. I suspect that even with good friends, if they didn't want to do that I wouldn't enjoy playing an RPG with them. But that's just me, your group should do what suits you.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

At least as far as I'm concerned this isn't the case. It is instead a question of avoiding " I diplomacy him" moments that suck the fun out of the game. The heart and soul of play is descibing what you do and saying what you want to say, getting a reaction/feedback and doing more of the same. Reducing this to a number defeats the point of play.

Not for players who suck at RPing social situations but who nonetheless want to play socially skilled PCs.

Without some sort of social skill system, you're just telling those players to take a hike. You're making the game harder for that subset to playthefull panoply of PCs available.

 

[S'mon]

Not for players who suck at RPing social situations but who nonetheless want to play socially skilled PCs.

Without some sort of social skill system, you're just telling those players to take a hike. You're making the game harder for that subset to playthefull panoply of PCs available.

They suck so much that they can't even describe OOC what they want to achieve IC?