Solars too weak?

I think a Solar is way more powerful than either a Balor or Pit Fiend without having to resort to sanctifying spells or persistant feats that are not listed for it. It's spell like abilities alone make it increadibly deadly but it is also a 20th level cleric. That's pretty darn tough.
 

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Well, this post is commenting on two separate things:

1. The fact that the solar was left roughly the same in power as in 3.0 while the pit fiend and balor were bumped up in power substantially.

2. The fact that the solar, a paragon of goodness, virtue, wisdom, majesty, and fortitude, has lower Int, Wis, and Cha scores than the pit fiend, an otherwise less powerful creature overall.

#1 is easy to answer. The 3.0 solar was already radically overpowered for its CR (a number of reputable posters and game designers put it at 24 or 25, far above the 19 listed in the 3.0 MM). It's a reasonably powerful CR 23 now, and certainly much more powerful than either the pit fiend or the balor. 20th-level cleric spellcasting plus buff spell-like abilities plus regeneration, epic DR, high stats, fat natural armor, and spell resistance make for a tough customer.

#2, OTOH, is a bit more difficult for me to swallow. Most epic creatures have really, really high stats; the more to keep their skill checks and hit points up to par with challenges appropriate to epic PCs. I'd say the solar needs better stats across the board, and might propose +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, and +4 Cha as reasonable modifiers to the base creature. (Personally, I also think the solar's weapons were downgraded a bit much; the old versions or something in between would be, IMHO, quite in line with the creature's power.)
 

2. The fact that the solar, a paragon of goodness, virtue, wisdom, majesty, and fortitude, has lower Int, Wis, and Cha scores than the pit fiend, an otherwise less powerful creature overall.

n a world where your enemies are solars, you have to be smarters, wiser, and more charismatic just to survive. :D
 


James McMurray said:
n a world where your enemies are solars, you have to be smarters, wiser, and more charismatic just to survive. :D

Plus everyone knows that bad guys are smarter (ever consider how much planning it takes to be an evil overlord?), wiser (since they worked out that evil will win every time) and more charismatic (it's pretty tough to rip someone's head off and look cool doing it) than the good guys :)
 

gfunk said:
Comparing the Pit Fiend to the Solar, I would not consider 3 point of Int, 1 point of Wis, and 1 point of Cha to be significantly less.

Anyway, if you simply glance at the staggering array of spell-like abilities and spells a Solar possesses, I think you will see that they can quickly mop the floor with either a Balor or Pit Fiend.

As ruleslawyer noted, I actually had two points. The Cha/Wis issue is kind of separate from the power issue. It just feels wrong for the fiends to have higher Wis and Cha than the solar - even that 1 point in the devil's favor is about 11 points too high (i.e., the solar should have the advantage in these stats, even if not across the board - as it is, the fiend is better across the board).
 

shilsen said:
Plus everyone knows that bad guys are smarter (ever consider how much planning it takes to be an evil overlord?), wiser (since they worked out that evil will win every time) and more charismatic (it's pretty tough to rip someone's head off and look cool doing it) than the good guys :)
A rather ironic comment from someone with Gandalf the White as his avatar, of course... :)
 

jgsugden said:
Uhhh ... EX-squeeeese me, but Solars got beefier. Epic DR is a pretty hefty increase in power.
What?

Not to digress, but you really think that a bump up from DR x/+5 to (1/2x)/+6 is a "pretty hefty increase in power" in light of a serious decrease in weapon power and special qualities?
 

ruleslawyer said:
Not to digress, but you really think that a bump up from DR x/+5 to (1/2x)/+6 is a "pretty hefty increase in power" in light of a serious decrease in weapon power and special qualities?
Yes. This is DR that actually has some teeth.

If you know you're going to face a Pit Fiend or Balor, you can take steps to get your hands on weapons to beat his DR. If you're facing a Solar, you need an EPIC weapon to beat DR. In most games, epic weapons are hard to come by ... For all intensive purposes, this is DR #/-.

That is a huge imporvement from the old DR that all 15th level parties could ignore with a simple 3rd/4th level spell.
 

shilsen said:
Plus everyone knows that bad guys are smarter (ever consider how much planning it takes to be an evil overlord?), wiser (since they worked out that evil will win every time) and more charismatic (it's pretty tough to rip someone's head off and look cool doing it) than the good guys :)

ruleslawyer said:
A rather ironic comment from someone with Gandalf the White as his avatar, of course... :)

Irony is almost as fun as adamantiny. And Gandalf wasn't on the winning side because he was smarter, wiser or more charismatic. His staff just had a bigger knob on the end. Trust me.

Okay, I'll quit hijacking now.
 

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