Solving all minion issues (long)

[im_robertb]

Dreamchaser, those charts are for creating the monster statblocks, not for running them mid-fight.

Also, I'm concerned that these HP amounts might be a bit too high. I think a hit with an at-will from a PC of any level should kill 1 minion, more in cases like Cleave and Scorching Burst. I think your model does well for area effects, but a hit with Cleave killing 1.5 minions at low level, and less at 20th level, seems a bit wonky to me, though I guess at that level at-wills are almost unused.

My other concern is how to handle it when a single-target attack does enough damage to kill multiple minions. For example, a level 1 Warlock hits with Flames of Phlegethos (3d10+con+curse+ongoing 5 fire) against a level 1 Artillery minion (5 hp). There are a total of 4 such minions in the room, but the 3 that aren't being attacked by the warlock are all at the other side of the fight. The Warlock's attack, assuming average rolls and 18 con, deals 24 damage, and ongoing 5 fire. So the minion he hits is dead, but do the other 3 minions at the other side of the room suddenly burst into flames too?

I assume minions would be affected by conditions just as they normally would, but how about, for example, ongoing 5 fire (save ends)? Does it go onto the minion hit by the attack, and go away when he dies, or is it tracked on the HP pool as a whole?

I agree with your premises, that the minion system has some problems at higher levels, and this looks like a good way of dealing with the issue, but the above 'nuke one minion and they ALL die!' issue needs a solution, at least flavorwise.

 

[Nytmare]

Pre 4th I used a shared HP pool for what were, in essence, minions. With the advent of the bloodied mechanic I have my minions get bloodied with one hit, and killed by the second, or by a crit.

 

[Ceraus]

Also, I'm concerned that these HP amounts might be a bit too high. I think a hit with an at-will from a PC of any level should kill 1 minion, more in cases like Cleave and Scorching Burst. I think your model does well for area effects, but a hit with Cleave killing 1.5 minions at low level, and less at 20th level, seems a bit wonky to me, though I guess at that level at-wills are almost unused.

This is intentional. From experience, player at-will damage scales pretty well. Strikers always one-hit kill if they can deal their extra damage. Cleave is less effective but stays useful; its slack is picked up by the many powers that cover wide areas or deal automatic damage.

The average level 30 minion has 35 HP. By then, a player can deal about 10 (2W) + 8 (stat) + 6 (enhancement) + 3 (miscellaneous) = 27 damage. Some characters will do less, some much more.

So the minion HP rises quite a lot, but player ability to cut through that HP scales too.

My other concern is how to handle it when a single-target attack does enough damage to kill multiple minions. For example, a level 1 Warlock hits with Flames of Phlegethos (3d10+con+curse+ongoing 5 fire) against a level 1 Artillery minion (5 hp). There are a total of 4 such minions in the room, but the 3 that aren't being attacked by the warlock are all at the other side of the fight. The Warlock's attack, assuming average rolls and 18 con, deals 24 damage, and ongoing 5 fire. So the minion he hits is dead, but do the other 3 minions at the other side of the room suddenly burst into flames too?

I assume minions would be affected by conditions just as they normally would, but how about, for example, ongoing 5 fire (save ends)? Does it go onto the minion hit by the attack, and go away when he dies, or is it tracked on the HP pool as a whole?

I agree with your premises, that the minion system has some problems at higher levels, and this looks like a good way of dealing with the issue, but the above 'nuke one minion and they ALL die!' issue needs a solution, at least flavorwise.

Ah... there we go. I hadn't encountered such a situation yet, but this is a real problem.

First, a single damage source cannot hurt a minion for more than his max HP. This prevents most realism issues with my system and is compensated by giving minions little HP and the shared HP bank. Powerful single-target attacks are wasted against minions, but multi-hit attacks are optimal (as things should be).

A quick and dirty solution would be to flavor-kill any minion hit by ongoing damage. Like saying "the minion catches fire and runs around panicking" and just deal max damage to that minion. As ongoing damage cannot be at-will, I figure the system won't break.

Another solution would be to apply the ongoing damage once and forget about it afterwards. This will look flashy (insta-ongoing!) and only make minions more resilient to ongoing damage. Those attacks would probably have killed the target minion anyway, so both dirty solutions might have the same effect in pratice.

Other suggestions, or evaluation of those two, are welcome.

 

[KarinsDad]

So! What to do? First thing, which I recommend to anyone, is to bump minion damage so that it stays consistent with player HP.



Raise minion damage


Raise it by half their level, and bump it by one more at Paragon and another one at Epic.

Let's see the results.

Level 1: 25 HP, 4 damage. About 1/6 of HP.
Level 11: 78 HP, 12 damage. About 1/6.5 of HP.
Level 21: 131 HP, 20 damage. About 1/6.5 of HP.

Great!

If you want even deadlier minions, bump their damage by one at levels 5, 15 and 25 too.

I have a problem with minions even being recognized as minions. IMO, they should just be another combatant until they fall over.

My solution for the damage was to roll basic dice so that a) players do not know it is a minion and b) damage is more reasonable.

For example, a level 14 Cyclops Guard does 7 damage. That means it always rolls a 1 with its D12 large battle axe based on its Strength 22.

So, I roll D12+6 damage for that minion.

Btw, a Cyclops Guard is supposed to be level 11. At least that's what all of its stats show.

 

[Stalker0]

One...I'll agree with your analysis of minion damage. You would expect minions to be about as threatening at all levels and your adjustment seems to do that.

Two...disagree about minion hp. The whole point of minions is one hit, one kill. I've seen a lot of suggestions on how to handle autodamage, but just giving them hp isn't the way to go imo.

 

[Ceraus]

The whole point of minions is one hit, one kill.

That's still what happens in practice... 2/3 of the time. Weak auto-damage won't kill my minions, but normal, at-will damage is usually sufficient.

The average level 30 minion has 35 HP. By then, a player can deal about 10 (2W) + 8 (stat) + 6 (enhancement) + 3 (miscellaneous) = 27 damage with at-will powers. Some characters do less, some much more.

Also, I don't agree that it's their whole point. I think their point is to make a balanced threat out of numerous weak enemies. In previous editions, those weak enemies would be hit most of the time and miss most of the time, but their HP and damage would be too high, not to mention the many abilities they would sport. Elites and Solos have the opposite use.

It just so happens that making 4E minions die in one hit really cuts their management time. Unfortunately, it also has the major effect of making them non-issues at high levels regardless of damage (unless you want to enter "dazed (save ends)" cheese territory).

 

[Ceraus]

For example, a level 14 Cyclops Guard does 7 damage. That means it always rolls a 1 with its D12 large battle axe based on its Strength 22.

So, I roll D12+6 damage for that minion.

By a stroke of luck, your house rule is balanced at the exact level you're using it.

At high levels, however, your minions still won't do much damage, and at low levels, they will obviously obliterate any party.

Also, it has been discussed that minions should be recognizable, if only by their appearance. The low-rank soldier should be easily distinguished from the high-rank elite. Players are expected to see the difference and plan accordingly.

 

[fissionessence]

The April Fools adventure at Wizards has minions with monster roles, and even an elite minion.

~

 

[Ceraus]

The April Fools adventure at Wizards has minions with monster roles, and even an elite minion.

HA! That's rich.

And they even managed to sneak in a confirmation about minion recognizability:

When the brain mole rolls initiative, its enemies think it’s a minion.

I know it's a joke module. This is a fine ability anyway, and it implies that everyone is supposed to have an idea of a creature's power level.

And for those who want to know: the module's "elite" minion is dropped in one hit. However, if it starts its turn at 0 HP, it gains 1 HP. I have no idea how that could possibly be beneficial.

Still a fun module with many inspiring abilities, and after seeing it, I'm convinced minions are getting roles in the second Monster Manual.

 

[KarinsDad]

By a stroke of luck, your house rule is balanced at the exact level you're using it.

At high levels, however, your minions still won't do much damage, and at low levels, they will obviously obliterate any party.

Not at low levels. I don't know about high level since I have not yet gotten there.

Goblin Cutter. D6+2 damage averages 5.5, not 4.
Kobold Minion. D6 damage averages 3.5, not 4.
Giant Rat. D4+1 damage averages 3.5, not 3.
Decrepit Skeleton. D8+2 damage averages 6.5, not 4.

Sure, some of these average a little more damage. But, they won't "obviously obliterate any party".

The damage problem you discuss occurs at low levels too. Someone swinging a short sword should do short sword damage.

At high level, an Angel of Valor does 9 points. That could be D10+8, or one could use the 2xW level 21 rules that the PCs have for their At Will powers and make it 2D10+8. That seems reasonable, but probably a bit light at levels 15 through 20.

Also, it has been discussed that minions should be recognizable, if only by their appearance. The low-rank soldier should be easily distinguished from the high-rank elite. Players are expected to see the difference and plan accordingly.

This is a silly new gaming community cultural element added for 4E due to the introduction of MMORPGs. One plays an MMORPG, one finds out the level of their foe instantly. Ok for a computer game, lousy for a pen and paper RPG.

Minions should NOT have the word Minion stamped on their foreheads.

To a PC, the opponent with a short sword is an opponent with a short sword. Until they actually duke it out for a few rounds, the PC should have ZERO knowledge about whether this is the worst swordsman in the world or the best swordsman in the world.

Our gaming community has been brainwashed by WotC to rationalize the concept of minions with the concept that they are immediately recognizable as such. I call the BS rule on that.

How does a PC know a Medium sized Spider the size of a donkey is a minion? Answer, he should not. Does the Spider only have 3 legs instead of 8? How do you know that the spider is gimped? You've been duped by this metagaming concept which should not be in the game system.

And it has been rationalized by people with statements like: "The goblin appears to be carrying a rusty short sword, his armor is slightly in tatters.". That's a fine rationale, but it's merely that. A rationale introduced to support a game concept that shouldn't be part of the game. Why can a minion not be in nice armor with a nice weapon? Because that would destroy the minion hook, line, and sinker myth that people have bought into. The myth was only introduced to make larger encounters easier for the DM, not for any in game reason.

Players shouldn't know they are fighting a minion until the minion falls over dead. Until that point in time, the player should perceive the minion as a threat, just like any other threat.

And that's why some DMs also introduced the concept of "tough minions", ones that might not fall over in one hit, but maybe in two or three.