Solving all minion issues (long)

[keterys]

Yep, those sound a lot more like rules we bandied about on these boards before for "grunts" rather than the normal minions and it ends up pretty different.

Curious - if someone hits one of your (low level) tough minions for 30 damage with a daily, does it still need a second hit, or is there a threshold they just die at?

 

[KarinsDad]

Curious - if someone hits one of your (low level) tough minions for 30 damage with a daily, does it still need a second hit, or is there a threshold they just die at?

I basically simplified that. If they get hit for high damage (e.g. a critical or whatever) and still do not die (50% chance), I consider it two hits instead of one and they are bloodied immediately. The next hit will kill it.

On the other hand, if a player hits them for 1 point of damage on a missed attack roll, they are considered hit once with no chance to die (unless of course they already have two hits in which case they die).

The first rule is pro-minion, the second rule is pro-PCs.

In the large scheme of things, this type of stuff matters little, so I just try to balance it out. Any set of minion rules are approximations anyway.

 

[sigfile]

I've seen two solutions for minions at higher tiers. One I like, the other I haven't had an opportunity to test.

First proposal: Paragon and better minions should have death effects. Some will harm, some will heal, some will buff, some will curse. It makes the controller(s) have to think, rather than just blindly AoE-ing to obliterate the one-hit-wonders. This has worked well, and been fun.

Example: Drow minions expel a one-square cloud of darkness that obscures enemy LOS for one turn when they die. Evaporating the Drow front line during round one grants their artillery total concealment.

Example: Spider minions become sticky (difficult) terrain when killed.

Second proposal: Minions can take one hit per tier. Actual damage is irrelevant -- each time an attack lands (that would do damage), the minion loses a counter. When all counters are gone, the minion dies.

I'm considering proposal #2, but haven't tried it yet. In theory, it puts a lot more emphasis on the party's reusable AoE abilities, largely shifting minion control back to the controllers. It's also easy to track. Granting minions three hits (at Epic) may overpower them.

 

[evilbob]

First proposal: Paragon and better minions should have death effects. Some will harm, some will heal, some will buff, some will curse. It makes the controller(s) have to think, rather than just blindly AoE-ing to obliterate the one-hit-wonders. This has worked well, and been fun.

Example: Drow minions expel a one-square cloud of darkness that obscures enemy LOS for one turn when they die. Evaporating the Drow front line during round one grants their artillery total concealment.

Example: Spider minions become sticky (difficult) terrain when killed.

Wow, that is... awesome! It might even be worth the time it takes to make something thematic up on the spot! @ Ceraus

 

[keterys]

Just make sure that killing the minions isn't even more beneficial than it was before - okay, so these guys all explode when they die, and the wizard went first so he kills half of them, and those all explode dealing damage to the guys we're fighting and maybe even killing the other half of the minions, etc...

 

[Ceraus]

The DM has to be aware of many things. One of those is the DMG suggestion to NOT use 20 minions.

I agree. But 12 minions and 2 synergic standards make great fights. The orcs are a good example.

Any 20 first level minions targeting one PC will do a lot of damage because 8-10 of those minions will hit. It doesn't matter if it is 8-10 hits at 4 points, or 8-10 hits at 6.5 points.

Again, I agree. That's why I recommend either lowering their damage to 3 or their number to 3-for-1-standard.

I use "tough minions" that get double XP. These minions fall after 1-3 hits depending (50% on one hit, 25% on two hits, 25% on three hits, or on 1.75 hits on average), they do average monster damage instead of wimpy damage, and they can even critical a PC.

Oh.

*does maths*

It works, then. Here I thought your minions worked as normal except for the damage.

Paragon and better minions should have death effects. Some will harm, some will heal, some will buff, some will curse. It makes the controller(s) have to think, rather than just blindly AoE-ing to obliterate the one-hit-wonders. This has worked well, and been fun.

Example: Drow minions expel a one-square cloud of darkness that obscures enemy LOS for one turn when they die. Evaporating the Drow front line during round one grants their artillery total concealment.

Example: Spider minions become sticky (difficult) terrain when killed.

That's mighty cool, and I'm stealing it. Well, not for human armies, mind you, but when appropriate, it's really cool.

EDIT: Human spellcasters could leave something. A cleric could leave a 1-square "consecrated area" that heals allies and harms enemies; a human druid could leave some kind of "entangling roots" behind.

 

[Stalker0]

One rule I use that has helped in the mid levels is to allow aid another to succeed on a 1 (meaning creatures with +9 to attack auto succeed).

Using aid with minions is a very powerful way to make them effective, even if they immediately die. +2 is great when comboed with a powerful artillery or brute.

Btw, I also let the pcs benefit from this

 

[Ceraus]

One rule I use that has helped in the mid levels is to allow aid another to succeed on a 1 (meaning creatures with +9 to attack auto succeed).

Using aid with minions is a very powerful way to make them effective, even if they immediately die. +2 is great when comboed with a powerful artillery or brute.

Btw, I also let the pcs benefit from this

I've let it auto-succeed since 3.5. I see no reason it should be more powerful at higher levels.

I used to use it a lot in 3.5, too. My army-heavy campaign has been ongoing for almost 4 years, so I had many low-level enemies in half of the encounters... "help another" made them more relevant.

Back then, I also had them do fixed damage and never created monsters with PC rules. I just watched the patterns and gave NPCs stats and loot relevant to their CR.

Let's say I was pleased with 4E's endorsment.

 

[Mengu]

I'll definitely be using increased minion damage at higher levels, though I don't want to go too crazy. I'll probably use the following table as guideline:

Level 1-5: 4-6 damage
Level 6-10: 6-8 damage
Level 11-15: 8-10 damage
Level 16-20: 10-12 damage
Level 21-25: 12-14 damage
Level 26-30: 14-16 damage

I kind of like the idea of one hit bloodies, one hit kills mechanic for some tough minions. But I don't like it without a threshold to one shot a minion. How about something like: If you do more than twice the base damage a minion can do against the minion in one hit, it dies instead of becoming bloodied.

This way most strikers should still be able to one shot a minion, but other classes would likely have to hit twice, unless they are using an encounter/daily power, or get a critical hit or roll high damage.

Or if that threshold seems a little low, maybe I could modify the guideline table to something like:

Level 1-5: 4-6 damage/threshold 15
Level 6-10: 6-8 damage/threshold 20
Level 11-15: 8-10 damage/threshold 25
Level 16-20: 10-12 damage/threshold 30
Level 21-25: 12-14 damage/threshold 35
Level 26-30: 14-16 damage/threshold 40

And I might be adopting some of the "if you kill this minion, this happens" mechanics as well. Thanks for the stimulating discussion.

 

[sigfile]

Just make sure that killing the minions isn't even more beneficial than it was before - okay, so these guys all explode when they die, and the wizard went first so he kills half of them, and those all explode dealing damage to the guys we're fighting and maybe even killing the other half of the minions, etc...

I typically limit the area of effect to one square for just that reason. Explosive-style death attacks are just too likely to cause a chain reaction (this could be entertaining in a lighthearted scenario, I suppose). If I'm looking to cause harm, the minions will either leave a sort of a cloud of daggers/bees/necrotic energy/etc in their squares, or their deaths will trigger a one-shot retribution attack (psychic pain, piercing cry, that sort of thing) against their killers.

Using minions to create terrain is a lot more fun than directly punishing the controllers for doing their jobs, so I don't make frequent use of the counterattack option.

Another gotcha to look out for -- untyped bonuses. If a minion's essence paints its killer as a target until the end of the killer's next turn, be sure to grant that as a +2 power bonus (example) to an enemy attack instead of just a +2 bonus. An efficient use of the Dragonborn Fighter's breath weapon shouldn't grant a single enemy +18 to hit.