Solving all minion issues (long)

[Sadrik]

Why not just up the minion damage and increase their defenses a bit?

I see where he is going with this. Increasing hit points is a binary thing and minions have another binary thing alive or dead. So simply increasing their defenses will have the effect of making them very weird. Adding a little attrition back in seems warranted and very D&D like.


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One thing I don't really care for about minions is that the players always know that they are minions because I don't roll damage. Perhaps another way to do the damage is to give them back a roll. That way it won't be 4 - 4 - 4 - 4...

 

[Ceraus]

Level 1-5: 4-6 damage/threshold 15
Level 6-10: 6-8 damage/threshold 20
Level 11-15: 8-10 damage/threshold 25
Level 16-20: 10-12 damage/threshold 30
Level 21-25: 12-14 damage/threshold 35
Level 26-30: 14-16 damage/threshold 40

So level 1, 4 damage and level 11, 8 damage?

Player HP triples by then. How about level 1, 3 damage and level 11, 9 damage?

I've outlined many possible damage values that scale with player HP. May I recommend my second and fourth posts?

Actually, I recommend the two leftmost damage columns in my third post... your damage threshold makes minions much more difficult to kill, especially at low levels. Beware low levels!

 

[evilbob]

Another gotcha to look out for -- untyped bonuses. If a minion's essence paints its killer as a target until the end of the killer's next turn, be sure to grant that as a +2 power bonus (example) to an enemy attack instead of just a +2 bonus. An efficient use of the Dragonborn Fighter's breath weapon shouldn't grant a single enemy +18 to hit.

New minion templates:

Lil' Buddy, NO!
Can be applied to any humanoid minion
Upon this minion's death, the nearest same-typed non-minion ally gets a +2 power bonus to its next attack roll.

Ewwy Gooey Kablooey
Can be applied to any minion with the spider race
Upon this minion's death, webs explode from its body making the area where it died difficult terrain until that minion's previous position in the initiative order. Medium or smaller creatures create a web in one square, while larger creatures cover their entire area as appropriate. Creatures with the spider race ignore this difficult terrain.

Who Turned Out the Lights?
Can be applied to any minion with the shadow origin or drow race
Upon this minion's death, a cloud of darkness appears in the area where it died that blocks line of sight for all creatures except those with the shadow origin or drow race until that minion's previous position in the initiative order. Medium or smaller creatures create a cloud in one square that is one square high, while larger creatures cover their entire area as appropriate.

Head Toward... the Light
Can be applied to any minion with the immortal origin
Upon this minion's death, bright light is shed from the area where it died in a burst 5, and in the area where the minion died no creature can benefit from concealment or total concealment. This effect lasts until that minion's previous position in the initiative order.

 

[Mengu]

For minion damage, I think it needs to be compared to other monsters, not PC hit points.

So level 1, 4 damage and level 11, 8 damage?

Player HP triples by then. How about level 1, 3 damage and level 11, 9 damage?

Looking at what a level 11 skirmisher can do, say grimblock ambusher, their minimum is 6 damage, average is 11.5 damage. 8-10 damage for a minion seems reasonable to me.

An Angel of Battle, level 15 skirmisher, does 6 minimum damage, and 10.5 average damage. Again for a minion, 8-10 damage looks good.

You don't suddenly want your minions doing 15-16 damage at level 15, when that's about the maximum damage for a skirmisher of that level.

At level 21, wildhunt hound does 18 max damage, and your minions are dishing out 20. One wonders who to fear more, the 4 minions on the right flank, or the 1 skirmisher on the left flank?

your damage threshold makes minions much more difficult to kill, especially at low levels. Beware low levels!

The damage threshold is only for one-shotting the tough minion. Otherwise, they get bloodied with one hit, and die on the second hit. Doesn't matter how much damage you do, so against that 15 threshold minion, you could do 4 points of damage from cleave bloodying it, and 5 points from a breath weapon, and the minion would be dead. Or your walock could curse it and eldritch blast it for 16 points, killing it in one shot.

I also wouldn't use the threshold/bloodied mechanic on every minion, just the ones I wanted to make tough.

 

[Ceraus]

For minion damage, I think it needs to be compared to other monsters, not PC hit points.

I strongly disagree.

Other monsters get nifty abilities, much more staying power and inflict debiliating effects. Their damage can fall behind player HP (although I think they overdid it).

Minions... they just deal damage. Their damage needs to scale properly since nothing else can compensate if it doesn't.

Say a level 1 minion that deals damage equal to 1/6 of a player's HP is worth 1/4 of a standard monster.

Then a level 11 minion that deals 1/12 of a player's HP and dies more easily cannot possibly be worth 1/4 of a standard monster.

I personnally think the best solution is the one I outlined earlier where minions stay as they are, but are worth 1/3 of a standard at level 1 and 1/8 at level 30. This compensates for the fact that their damage gets less relevant and they get much easier to kill.

 

[keterys]

Minions... they just deal damage.

Why? I mean, ghoul minions immobilize and lich minions weaken, for instance.

 

[Mengu]

Other monsters get nifty abilities, much more staying power and inflict debiliating effects.

Minions provide flanks, give each other bonuses, benefit from leader bonuses, and control the field by not letting you through until you deal with them. There is something to be said about outnumbering your enemy.

I do agree they need to do a little more damage, and be a little more durable (hence my suggestions), but I don't think they should become priority threats. A barbarian should be able to decide he is going to ignore some arachnid minions that are biting at him, make a great leap over them, and get to the arachnomancer in the back. Those minions should not do enough damage to bloody him. If they do, then they are no longer minions, but serious enemies to be dealt with, which means they should probably have been skirmishers at the least, not minions.

There has to be a sweet spot that qualifies for "credible threat", "can be ignored for heroics", and "can be slaughtered by the handful", and that's where minions belong.

 

[Ceraus]

Minions provide flanks, give each other bonuses, benefit from leader bonuses, and control the field by not letting you through until you deal with them. There is something to be said about outnumbering your enemy.

I know that minions provide flanks and all that; however, they don't get better at those things. Apart from some exceptions (ghoul/lich), minions only improve by doing more damage.

The Legion Devils are the best example... at higher levels, they deal less and less effective damage because player HP raise faster. Also, they die more easily due to better player powers.

They're simply worth less and less compared to a standard monster.

I do agree they need to do a little more damage, and be a little more durable (hence my suggestions), but I don't think they should become priority threats. A barbarian should be able to decide he is going to ignore some arachnid minions that are biting at him, make a great leap over them, and get to the arachnomancer in the back. Those minions should not do enough damage to bloody him. If they do, then they are no longer minions, but serious enemies to be dealt with, which means they should probably have been skirmishers at the least, not minions.

Minions dealing 4 damage at level 1 take a great chunk of a barbarian's HP with every hit, and they will frequently be the cause of his bloodying. Less so with 8 damage at level 16.

Let the barbarian leap epically, but at least make sure a minion of his level always represents the same amount of threat. It bears repeating:

Say a level 1 minion that deals damage equal to 1/6 of a player's HP is worth 1/4 of a level 1 standard monster.

Then a level 11 minion that deals 1/12 of a player's HP and dies more easily cannot possibly be worth 1/4 of a level 11 standard monster.

 

[Stalker0]

For minion damage, I think it needs to be compared to other monsters, not PC hit points.

Looking at what a level 11 skirmisher can do, say grimblock ambusher, their minimum is 6 damage, average is 11.5 damage. 8-10 damage for a minion seems reasonable to me.

An Angel of Battle, level 15 skirmisher, does 6 minimum damage, and 10.5 average damage. Again for a minion, 8-10 damage looks good.

You don't suddenly want your minions doing 15-16 damage at level 15, when that's about the maximum damage for a skirmisher of that level.

At level 21, wildhunt hound does 18 max damage, and your minions are dishing out 20. One wonders who to fear more, the 4 minions on the right flank, or the 1 skirmisher on the left flank?

I will allow disagree on these points. A monster isn't just its offense, its offense x defense shows its overall power. A skirmisher that does good damage and takes 3 rounds to kill can be more threatening than a monster that does a bit more damage but will die with a single hit.

You ask the question of what should you fear more, the 4 minions or one skirmisher? I think that really is a matter of opinion. For some, the 4 guys should be a scary threat, one the party is encouraged to take out as quickly as possible. Others want their minions more mookish, in which case their damage shouldn't be too high.

 

[Mengu]

A monster isn't just its offense, its offense x defense shows its overall power.

That is kind of why I'm trying to introduce a tough minion rule. And having 4 minions instead of 1 skirmisher, can be considered defense. Barring autokill powers, you need to connect 4 times to kill 4 minions (8 times for tough minions). Except for hit points, their other defenses are about equivalent between the skirmisher and the minion.

I guess it just would feel odd to me if two minions charged and did a total of 30 points of damage, when a skirmisher walked in and did 8.

Maybe I ought to think of minions more as brutes than skirmishers. I could see using a variety of minions. Maybe one encounter would have skirmisher minions and another would have brute minions.