Some alt smithing rules looking for opnions.

[Umarth]

Just cust a portion of my player info sheet for some alt rules in my game. I run a very low magic world (no wiz,sorc,clr,druid). I included some of the additional modifires I let people add on. Just wondering what folk think.

Special Materials
Adamantium: This dark black metal has a slight green sheen to it and confers a +1 enhancement bonus to armor or weapons made from it. In addition because of the quality and malleability of Adamantium any craft or profession rolls made gain a +2 bonus if crafting Adamantium items. Adamantium costs 2000gp/lb and items made from it normally cost 3 times the price of the raw materials in addition to any other normal costs.

Mithral: This metal is the color of untarnished silver and is surprisingly light and hard. Armor or weapons made from it weight ½ as much as normal. It provides a +2 enchantment bonus to armor or weapons made from Mithral. Additionally armor made of Mithral counts as 1 category lighter. Mithral is even easier to work with than Adamantium and grants a +4 bonus to craft or profession rolls while making Mithral items. Mithral costs around 5000gp per lb. Mithral objects normally cost 3 times the price of the raw materials in addition to any other normal costs.

Death Fruit Tree Wood:
This wood is hard to work but provides a +2 enhancement bonus to wooden weapons and armor made from it. It is very difficult to work however imposing a –6 check penalty to craft rolls made with it. Death fruit tree wood objects normally cost 3 times the price of the raw materials in addition to any other normal costs.



Item creation:
When crafting an item you must state what quality item you are trying to
make. If you fail your roll but it's still high enough to make a lower
quality item you make that item instead. If you roll high enough to make a
higher quality item then you originally started out making you DO NOT make
the higher quality. (High rolls will reduce the time needed to make the item
though)

Shoddy: These weapons have a -1 to hit and dmg
Simple melee or thrown weapon 8
Martial melee or thrown weapon 9
Exotic melee or thrown weapon 13

Faux Shoddy: Made out of the poorest of materials these weapons break very easily in combat. These weapons cost 1/10 normal to make. They break on any attack roll
of 1. An appraise check equal with a DC of 11,12, or 16 for simple, martial, or exotic weapons will reveal a Faux weapon for what it is. In addition these weapons take half the normal time to make. They also impose a –2 to hit and dmg.
Simple melee or thrown weapon 11
Martial melee or thrown weapon 12
Exotic melee or thrown weapon 16

Normal:
Simple melee or thrown weapon 12
Martial melee or thrown weapon 15
Exotic melee or thrown weapon 18

Faux Normal: Made out of the poorest of materials these weapons break very easily in combat. These weapons cost 1/10 normal to make. They break on any attack roll
of 1. An appraise check equal with a DC of 15,18, or 21 for simple, martial, or exotic weapons will reveal a Faux weapon for what it is.
Simple melee or thrown weapon 15
Martial melee or thrown weapon 18
Exotic melee or thrown weapon 21

Masterwork: +5 These weapons add +1 to hit.
Simple melee or thrown weapon 22
Martial melee or thrown weapon 25
Exotic melee or thrown weapon 28

Faux Masterwork: Made out of the poorest of materials these weapons break very easily in combat. These weapons cost 1/10 normal to make. They break on any attack roll
of 1. An appraise check equal with a DC of 25, 28, or 31 for simple, martial, or exotic weapons will reveal a Faux weapon for what it is. These weapons do not provide the normal bonus for masterwork weapons.
Simple melee or thrown weapon 25
Martial melee or thrown weapon 28
Exotic melee or thrown weapon 31

Serrated: (failing when making this type of weapon ruins the weapon)
Deadly Weapons: +10 (failing when making this type of weapon ruins the weapon)
Balanced Weapons: +10 (failing when making this type of weapon ruins the weapon)
Exquisite Weapon: +15 (failing when making this type of weapon ruins the weapon)


Weapon crafting time.
Weapons take 1 day per 3 points of the DC. This time is reduced by 1 day
for every 6 points you roll above the DC. Minimum time is 1 day.
Example: It normally takes 5 days to craft a Martial Melee weapon. Our
smith though dose very will on his roll and manages to get a 27 (20 roll +7
skill). Since this is 12 points above the needed DC to make a normal
martial melee weapon he makes it in 3 days rather than 5 days (-2 days for
12 points above the DC).

Adamanitum adds +2 to skill rolls working with it.
Mithril adds +4 to skill rolls working with it.
1 Person may aid you in your forging adding +2 to your check (if they
succeed at a weapon smithing/blacksmithing check DC 10)
Masterwork tools add +2 to your smithing check.
5 ranks in profession Blacksmith adds a +2 synergy bonus.
5 ranks in metallurgy adds a +2 synergy bonus.


Weapon Modifiers
Being a land of little magic, the people of the Narrow Lands have developed a number of different techniques for smithing.
Deadly Weapons: These weapons have been specially crafted to hit harder. They don't critical as often, but when they do, it hurts. Only applies to weapons with a threat range of 19-20 or higher. Reduce the threat range by half, and increase the crit multiplier by 1. (IE: a 17-20 weapon with x2 critical becomes a 19-20 x3. A 19-20/x2 becomes a x3) Each application of this increases the weapon creation DC by 5 and the cost by 150gp.
Balanced Weapons: These weapons don't hit as hard, but they hit more precisely. Only weapons with a x3 multiplier or higher can be balanced. Double the threat range, and decrease the multiplier by 1. Each application of this increases the weapon creation DC by 5 and the cost by 150gp.
Serrated: Wicked serrations line the edges of these blades inflicting an additional 1-point of dmg. on each hit.
Hardened Weapons: Hardened weapons are extremely tough, made to withstand damage. Each application of hardened (3 max) adds one to the hardness of the weapon, or 3 hit points. Balanced or Deadly weapons may not be hardened. Each application of Hardening increases the cost by 100 gp for materials and increases the DC by 5.
Exquisite Weapons: In addition to masterwork weapons, truly great smiths can make exquisite weapons. Each race has a different type of exquisite weapon. The DC for exquisite weapons is base DC + 8 for small weapons, +10 for medium, or +12 for large. Exquisite weapons supercede any other modifications.
· Dwarves: Dwarven exquisite weapons are extremely well crafted. Piercing and slashing weapons have their threat range doubled (20 becomes 19-20, 19-20 becomes 17-20, etc). Blunt weapons, on the other hand, increase the critical multiplier by one (x2 becomes x3, x3 becomes x4, etc).
· Humans: Human exquisite weapons are crafted to leave behind bleeding wounds, as a flamberge weapon. Any hit that does damage leaves a bleeding wound that does one additional point of damage each round. These wounds stack, so if a target has been hit by a flamberge weapons 3 times, they will take 3 hit points of damage around. A wounded opponent can take a full-round action to bandaged a wound (heal check, DC 15). This action does provoke an attack of opportunity.
· Elven: Elvish exquisite weapons are forged close to the source of the lost elven magics. Their crafting causes them to take on echoes of the ancient conflicts, and they glow when they are unsheathed within 120' of either elves or Orcs. In addition, they are extremely sharp (+1 damage).

 

[jgbrowning]

well

"Dwarves: Dwarven exquisite weapons are extremely well crafted. Piercing and slashing weapons have their threat range doubled (20 becomes 19-20, 19-20 becomes 17-20, etc). Blunt weapons, on the other hand, increase the critical multiplier by one (x2 becomes x3, x3 becomes x4, etc). "

pretty unbalancing. You a player or DM? if a player, think about how many more crits you will RECEIVE because of this. if a dm remember you've just increased the unpredictability of combat in your game making your job harder.


joe b.

edit: missed the part about being a land of little magic. may not be as unbalancing as it seems then, but its still making a dwarven exquisite weapon perm "Keen"

 

[Umarth]

I'm the DM.

"pretty unbalancing. You a player or DM? if a player, think about how many more crits you will RECEIVE because of this. if a dm remember you've just increased the unpredictability of combat in your game making your job harder."
"missed the part about being a land of little magic. may not be as unbalancing as it seems then, but its still making a dwarven exquisite weapon perm "Keen""


It's really not nearly as unbalanced as it seems. The only two "pure" casting classes are Bards and Adepts (with modified spell lists). Bards get Keen as a 3rd lvl spell and Adepts don't get it at all.

Second keep in mind if they want to make the weapon the DC for a Martial weapon would be smithing check DC 50. (25 for MW+25 for exquist ability)

 

[jgbrowning]

well

in that case, sounds good!


joe b.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Some comments:

Mithril/Adamantium: Having these be easier to work than other materials is not necessarily unbalanced but is directly in opposition to all of the source material I know of. In LotR, for instance, Mithril is very difficult to work not very easy--in fact, only the greatest craftsmen were able to use it properly and in some cases (such as the crafting of the back door to the lonely mountain (which if IIRC was outlined in the special mithril that would only become visible in certain light at a certain tiem) or the crafting of the doors Hollin Gate at Moria).

Nitpick: You have mithril providing an "enchantment" bonus--shouldn't this be an enhancement bonus?

Regarding the abilities of the weapons:
Deadly: this extremely numerically advantageous for 18-20 weapons and numerically a wash for 19-20 weapons. An 18-20 weapon normally produces the effect of three extra hits over the course of all its critical range. A 19-20 weapon produces the effect of two extra hits. By going to 19-20/x3, the 18-20 weapon now produces the effect of 4 extra hits. OTOH, the 19-20 weapon still produces the effect of 2 extra hits over its critical range when it becomes 20/x3.

Balanced Weapons produce similar results. A x3 weapon gains no numerical advantage by becoming 19-20/x2. OTOH, a x4 weapon gains a significant advantage by becoming 19-20/x3.

Exquisite weapons:

Dwarven--This similarly produces different advantages for weapons with different threat ranges:
Original--becomes--difference
18-20--15-20--3 extra hits becomes 6 extra hits
19-20--17-20--2 extra hits becomes 4 extra hits
x3--x4--2 extra hits becomes 3 extra hits
x4--x5--3 extra hits becomes 4 extra hits
Consequently, Dwarven scimitars and longswords gain much more advantage from being exquisite than warhammers and picks (which don't gain as much advantage as they would from being keen).

Human--does magical healing also negate the wounding effect? (assuming it's available in your world).

As a balance issue, it's worth noting that elven weapons are the weakest as they don't gain an advantage worth a full +1 enhancement bonus. A lot of dwarven weapons are effectively keen which is considered to be worth a full +1 enhancement bonus. Human weapons, OTOH gain the wounding enhancement which is worth considerably more than a +1 enhancement bonus.

As an issue of flavor, traditionally, elves and dwarves have been considered to have homogenous enough societies that they have set paths for their racial crafts but humans have been thought to be diverse enough that they should have different options. This is not necessarily the best way to handle such things but bear in mind that by setting one exquisite ability per race, you introduce the idea that all human, dwarven, or elven cultures are similar enough to share enough similarities that they produce the same kinds of weapons. You may not want this level of racial homogeneity in your game--for humans or anyone else.

Finally, just a note on the various critical effects--the balance issues that these modifications present for critical effects are exactly why almost all WotC products use critical multipliers instead of fixed ranges. Doubling the threat range doesn't change the qualities of a weapon (a tendency towards massive criticals or lots of criticals) which are balanced with normal damage in order to balance the weapons. Adding or subtracting fixed numbers from the multipliers and ranges dramatically changes the relative qualities of criticals.

 

[dead_radish]

Deadly: this extremely numerically advantageous for 18-20 weapons and numerically a wash for 19-20 weapons. An 18-20 weapon normally produces the effect of three extra hits over the course of all its critical range. A 19-20 weapon produces the effect of two extra hits. By going to 19-20/x3, the 18-20 weapon now produces the effect of 4 extra hits. OTOH, the 19-20 weapon still produces the effect of 2 extra hits over its critical range when it becomes 20/x3.

I'd argue that point.

Compare 18-20/2 vs 19-20/3

18-20/2 gets 3 bonus hits, in your terms (3 dice where you get one extra). 19-20/3 gets 4 (2 dice with 2 extra).

However, you're 5% more likely to get a threat on 18-20. The fact that you are more likely, overall, to get more damage with 19-20 seems somewhat balanced by the fact that you're more likely, at any given time, to crit. Then you have to factor in immune creatures, et al. If I only attack 5 times in a day, I'd rather have the higher chance.

I see the math which states that 4 hits is better than 3. But I also see that 5% chance of a crit can sometimes outweigh the more damage, especially if you are encountering a mix of immune/not immune. Seems like a choice issue to me.

And re: Elven weapons - there's an intangible "oooooh" factor there, too - Elven weapons are the only things in the world that are clearly magical. Thus they have a much greater effect than something that just hits harder - all the other enhancements are cool, and effective, but basically not obvious. They elven weapons are visibily magic.

 

[Umarth]

Some very intresting points Elder-Basklisk
As for the nitpick yes it is an enchanment bonus. Spell checker messed that up on me.

Also use the DCs listed in the table rather than any that might appear in the discrpition of the the ability (just made some changes to my stuff and didn't notice a few mistakes)

I realize that haveing mithril/admanitum easier to work with is a bit off with normal way of doing things but anyone makeing something out of mithril you will probably be makeing something with a very high DC already.

I see your point about the balanced and deadly weapons...not sure what I'm going to do with those.

Dwarves I'm going to probably make all there weapons Keen..but again I"m not sure. If you have any ideas feel free to post them.

The human kingdoms they have been dealing with so far in my game are very homogonized and are not that large. As the game expands I will probably add more options to humans depending on location.

Will post more thinking...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well there are advantages and disadvantages to having fewer more massive crits. The disadvantage is that you don't get as many of them. The advantage is that when you do get a crit, you typically kill your foe rather than just injure them a bit more.

For instance, in a game I recently played, a hasted human fighter/cleric using a longsword made a partial charge plus full attack. He hit with the first attack, critted with the second, and hit with his secondary attack. All told, he did about 67 points of damage and dropped his foe. It was very impressive.

Had he been wielding a battle axe, however, the crit on the second attack would have dropped his foe allowing him to take his third attack on the big plant creature we were fighting. (And, with one more attack, the creature might have died before it killed our cleric--it did die on the next party member's action after it killed our cleric). On the other hand, he might not have critted at all with the battle axe (I don't remember if it was a natural 20 or a 19 he rolled), in which case, we would have been even worse off.

Personally, I'm a bigger fan of crit ranges than massive crits too but there's definitely a mathematical advantage to 19-20/x3 over 18-20/x2. And the mathematical difference needs to be considered when designing rules. (And I'd definitely pick 19-20/x3 over 18-20/x2--I'm not that attached to getting lots of criticals).

I'd argue that point.

Compare 18-20/2 vs 19-20/3

18-20/2 gets 3 bonus hits, in your terms (3 dice where you get one extra). 19-20/3 gets 4 (2 dice with 2 extra).

However, you're 5% more likely to get a threat on 18-20. The fact that you are more likely, overall, to get more damage with 19-20 seems somewhat balanced by the fact that you're more likely, at any given time, to crit. Then you have to factor in immune creatures, et al. If I only attack 5 times in a day, I'd rather have the higher chance.

I see the math which states that 4 hits is better than 3. But I also see that 5% chance of a crit can sometimes outweigh the more damage, especially if you are encountering a mix of immune/not immune. Seems like a choice issue to me.

And re: Elven weapons - there's an intangible "oooooh" factor there, too - Elven weapons are the only things in the world that are clearly magical. Thus they have a much greater effect than something that just hits harder - all the other enhancements are cool, and effective, but basically not obvious. They elven weapons are visibily magic.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'd go with keen for dwarves.

Re: other critical effects, you could make criticals more massive on a mathematically even basis with keen by using this formula:
m=critical multiplier.
(m-1)x2+1=new multiplier
More simply stated, I guess it would be 2m-1=new crit multiplier.
Consequently, a devastating warhammer would be 20/x5 instead of 19-20/x3. Similarly, a devastating scythe would be 20/x7

Of course, in my experience, crits from x4 weapons typically kill whatever they hit anyway so there's not much advantage in going from x4 to x7 while there's a definite advantage in going from 20/x4 to 19-20/x4 as you do with a keen effect.

It would be a pretty nifty effect for a longsword or other x2 weapon with a decent threat range though. I'd go for a 19-20/x3 longsword over a 17-20/x2 one.

On the other hand, it would imbalance the improved critical feat since 17-20/x3 (improved critical deadly longsword--8 extra hits on criticals) is significantly better than 15-20/x2 (normal keen longsword with improved crit--6 extra hits on criticals). A deadly rapier or scimitar would be really nasty (15-20/x3 for 12 extra hits on crits instead of 12-20/x2 for 8 extra hits).

Some very intresting points Elder-Basklisk
Dwarves I'm going to probably make all there weapons Keen..but again I"m not sure. If you have any ideas feel free to post them.