Some bag of holding questions

[Stalker0]

This came up in my game last week.

The party had an encounter where they petrified a wizard and put him in their bag of holding. Now the wizard had some very special contingency spells...and one of them broke the petrification while in the bag. The wizard also had means to maintain an air supply in the bag.

So a good long ways later the party decides to pull him out of the bag. The wizard rolled initiative with the player and won, and then teleported away.

1) The players felt that they should have known the second they went to grab the wizard that he wasn't stone and would never have pulled him out of the bag.

Question: When a player is reaching in the bag, can they feel the objects or not until they are actually pulled out of the bag?

2) I ruled that the player could tell he was not stone. However, I said that since the player had accessed the bag to get to the wizard, the wizard now had a way out and so could use teleport to escape (obviously if the wizard can be pulled out of the bag, there must be a way out of the extradimensional space to the regular world)

Question: Do you consider this a fair ruling given the circumstances?

 

[sukael]

I wouldn't say so. After all, if you can't feel a particular object, how do you know what you're even removing? Note that bags of holding don't have the 'the item you want is automatically at the top' clause of handy haversacks.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The party had an encounter where they petrified a wizard and put him in their bag of holding.

They fit a full-sized statue through the opening in the bag? Did you warn them about "if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside)"? I can't imagine such a statue that is not sharp.

Now the wizard had some very special contingency spells...and one of them broke the petrification while in the bag.

That is extraordinarily odd. Can you explain that in more detail? I don't know how this could happen while in the bag, but not immediately after getting petrified. Was it a break enchantment 1 hour after being petrified or something?

So a good long ways later the party decides to pull him out of the bag.

A full-sized statue would be quite heavy. Which member of the party could actually lift him?

The wizard rolled initiative with the player and won, and then teleported away.

1) The players felt that they should have known the second they went to grab the wizard that he wasn't stone and would never have pulled him out of the bag.

I agree with the players. If everything else was as allowed, then absolutely would they realize he was not stone. More importantly, however, they would get no "hit" when trying to grab the statue. They could only get the wizard out by turning the bag inside out.

Question: When a player is reaching in the bag, can they feel the objects or not until they are actually pulled out of the bag?

Yes, otherwise how will they know they have the object at all?

2) I ruled that the player could tell he was not stone. However, I said that since the player had accessed the bag to get to the wizard, the wizard now had a way out and so could use teleport to escape (obviously if the wizard can be pulled out of the bag, there must be a way out of the extradimensional space to the regular world)

Not obviously, no. Teleport is non-directional, so saying you can teleport in one direction vs. another is purely conjecture. As far as I'm concerned, the barrier opening of the bag can only be broken by someone reaching into the bag to withdraw an item. Quite honestly, though, it was silly for such a high-level wizard not to have plane shift.

Question: Do you consider this a fair ruling given the circumstances?

I disagree with many points in this scenario, but there are too many questions yet unresolved to give a ruling on fairness.

 

[werk]

Yeah, I think the problems really arise from the cartoonish handling of the statue and bag.

Assuming he's at least 5' tall, I'd require a Type 3 bag to even consider this operation. Then you figure, if human sized, that's around 1000lbs (link). So they need to be able to lift that...which is somewhere around at least 26 STR.

Further assuming they were able to accomplish all of that, why wouldn't the wizard just teleport away as soon as he returned to flesh? Why not include the teleport in the contigency (makes more sense to me)?

Yes, a character would know the difference between a 1000lb statue and a 150lb mage. I would say your 'ruling' was moderately fair, in that it was not especially unfair, it is just a continuation of the cartoonish style...seems fine to me as long as you use a slide whistle when they pull him out of the bag.

 

[Ambrus]

I don't think it's necessary to be able to lift the 1000 lb statue to get it in the bag in the first place; simply pull the bag down over the top of the statue to get it inside. As long as they can get the 4 ft circumference lip of the bag around the whole length of the statue there shouldn't be a problem I think. I also wouldn't worry about any sharp edges of the statue piercing the inside of the bag. Looking at myself I don't see any part of my body or clothes that are particularly sharp looking. Unless the wizard was wearing armor spikes or wielding a dagger or spear with a sharp tip I couldn't see what about the statue might pierce the bag.

What I'm left wondering about is whether the wizard could have simply forced his way out of the bag himself from the inside. The interior of the bag is extradimensional, but the opening isn't described as being mystically sealed in any way. Unless the owner tied the bag opening closed from the outside somehow I'd imagine that the bag can be pulled open just like any mundane bag; something that can be done from the inside as easily from the outside. That being said, I don't believe the wizard could have teleported from inside the bag whether the bag was opened or not; until he's out of the bag he remains inside an extradimensional space. One can't teleport to escape such a place since the material plane is effectively a separate plane. He'd need to plane shift somehow to escape.

This also begets the question, if items reached for aren't automatically at hand when reached for (as in a handy haversack) then how can someone realistically find what they're looking for quickly? The bag is so big on the inside that someone reaching in might not even be able to reach the bottom of the bag without climbing inside. Even if he could how could he ever find any one object amidst the huge pile of junk most people seem to like loading into these things. It'd be like plunging one's hand into a storage closet piled full of junk and hoping to grasp your favorite pair of running shoes without looking.

 

[werk]

I don't think it's necessary to be able to lift the 1000 lb statue to get it in the bag in the first place; simply pull the bag down over the top of the statue to get it inside.

That would work, again, provided the bag is big enough, but to get it out you either have to lift it out or dump everything out. It's all moot, as that's not what happened in the OP.

 

[KarinsDad]

This also begets the question, if items reached for aren't automatically at hand when reached for (as in a handy haversack) then how can someone realistically find what they're looking for quickly? The bag is so big on the inside that someone reaching in might not even be able to reach the bottom of the bag without climbing inside. Even if he could how could he ever find any one object amidst the huge pile of junk most people seem to like loading into these things. It'd be like plunging one's hand into a storage closet piled full of junk and hoping to grasp your favorite pair of running shoes without looking.

As per the SRD:

Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action—unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action.

 

[Infiniti2000]

As long as they can get the 4 ft circumference lip of the bag around the whole length of the statue there shouldn't be a problem I think. I also wouldn't worry about any sharp edges of the statue piercing the inside of the bag. Looking at myself I don't see any part of my body or clothes that are particularly sharp looking. Unless the wizard was wearing armor spikes or wielding a dagger or spear with a sharp tip I couldn't see what about the statue might pierce the bag.

I agree it totally depends on what exact stance the wizard was in when petrified. I'd say that it's highly likely he didn't have a quarterstaff or anything like that. But, the statue does need to be lifted to close off the bag. When the wizard comes to, if he has a dagger he could just cut the bag open. For sure, he'd have initiative + he'd ruin a magic item of his enemy.

 

[Ambrus]

Karins Dad; I'm familiar with the item's description, I just think it's rather generous really. I know it takes me more than three seconds (a move action) to find and pull something out of my backpack by touch. Finding something in my closet, under the best of circumstances, would certainly take me more than six seconds (a full round action).

But, the statue does need to be lifted to close off the bag.

That's true, but as soon as the lip of the bag reaches the floor the statue would be fully in the bag so its weight becomes negligible since things in the bag weigh a fixed amount.

When the wizard comes to, if he has a dagger he could just cut the bag open. For sure, he'd have initiative + he'd ruin a magic item of his enemy.

If he did that though he'd risk being "lost forever" (according to the item's description, whatever that means) along with the rest of the bag's contents. I'd assume he'd just end up stranded on the astral plane somewhere. It's a risky move but it's probably preferable for a powerful wizard than being stuck as his enemies' prisoner. He'd also have the added bonus of getting whatever nifty stuff the PC had in the bag along with the satisfaction of sticking it to the PC by ruining his magic item.

 

[KarinsDad]

The party had an encounter where they petrified a wizard and put him in their bag of holding. Now the wizard had some very special contingency spells...and one of them broke the petrification while in the bag. The wizard also had means to maintain an air supply in the bag.

I have a bit of a problem with the Contigency here.

First, you list it as one of several Contingency spells. Contigency does not allow for multiple Contigency spells.

Second, Contingency works immediately, not some time after the event occurs. Even if the event was being placed into an interdimensional space, it's hard to conceive of a Contigency worded to fire off in this manner.

The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur. If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.

You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.

And, complicated Contigencies might fail, but your Contigency appears to be a lot more complex than normal and it worked.

Question: Do you consider this a fair ruling given the circumstances?

No, I think you screwed the players here. I have had this problem occur with some DMs. No matter what the players do or how well they plan out, the DM has a "contigency" of pulling some NPC's fat out of the fire, even if the DM has to break the normal rules to do so.


You did not mention what the Contigency was, but you appeared to break two Contigency rules by doing this.

On top of that, when the PC tried to pull out the Statue of the Wizard, you had him pull out the Wizard instead. That's a potential Bag of Holding rule at least bent if not broken because there was no Statue of the Wizard in the bag. If the player tries to pull out the statue and there is no statue there, nothing should come out.

This is like trying to pull your Ring of Regeneration out of the bag and getting your Cloak of Resistance instead. Two different items.

Granted, petrified creatures are still the original creatures, but this is still debatable. Even if you allow the NPC to be pulled out of the bag because it is the same creature, he is still in the equivalent of a grapple (i.e. the guy who pulled him out has ahold of him) and should have to make a Concentration check to Teleport away.

You also assumed that the Wizard was awake and alert in the bag. I don't know what "a good long ways later" means, but if it more than even a half day, the Wizard in the bag should have been groggy and disoriented if nothing else. You had him fresh enough to just go straight to initiatives.

Minimally, the PC pulling him out of the bag should have done it on a Surprise round and the NPC Wizard should have been flatfooted when he got pulled out.


It really sounds like you are "Ruling on the Fly" here, just to allow the NPC to get away, without having any of this thought out ahead of time or of following some of the rules on this. IMO.