Some questions on the Hide skill (world's dumbest rule question?)

[Arravis]

I have some questions about the Hide skill that I don't understand. I get the feeling the answers are somewhere in the rules, and probably quite obvious, but I don't see it.

1) I'm unable to find where it says that a creature is flat-footed or denied his dexterity bonus against a creature with Concealment. I know this is is one of the most common ways rogues get to do sneak attacks, but I can't find where it says so directly.

2) I cannot find anywhere where it says that a creature is flat-footed or denied his dexterity bonus against a hiding creature (via the Hide skill). Is a hidden creature considered under Invisible condition or Concealed? The rules seem to generally imply this, but I can't anywhere that outright says this.

3) If a character double moves through 55 unconcealed and uncovered squares, but he ends his turn in a 5' square that has concealment or cover, can he make a hide check? Are the penalties on Hide check due to movement meant for a character that is already hidden or for one that is going to be hiding?

4) If a character has cover in relation to the opponent who is not directly observing him, he can make a Hide check. But what happens when the opponent moves to a new spot and the hidden character no longer has cover in relation to the opponent. Is the character still hidden or does he automatically come out of hiding? Along the same vein, what happens if a character is in a square with concealment or cover, hides, and then moves to a square without concealment or hiding? Is he automatically out of hiding?

5) Lastly, here is an example of an issue we had recently. A rogue is accosted by a town guard, the rogue runs around the corner of a building (let's say 10' after the corner, and with full concealment and cover since there is no line of sight). The rogue then uses his Hide skill, and readies an action to attack (either with ranged or melee) the guardman. When the guard comes around the corner, is the guard flat-footed to the rogue? The moment he comes around the corner, the rogue no longer has cover or concealment against the guard. What happens in this situation?

Anyway, thanks for any help on this, I'm sure it's something simple, but I can't find it.

-Arravis

 

[Hypersmurf]

1) I'm unable to find where it says that a creature is flat-footed or denied his dexterity bonus against a creature with Concealment.

Concealment, not total concealment? Has no effect on Dex bonus to AC. Unless the creature is hiding, you can see him even though he has concealment; you just can't see him perfectly.

[2) I cannot find anywhere where it says that a creature is flat-footed or denied his dexterity bonus against a hiding creature (via the Hide skill).

That's because it doesn't.

There's argument as to whether a hiding creature is considered invisible or not. Some point to the description of the Invisible condition (which begins with 'visually undetectable') and say that a hiding creature is therefore Invisible. Others note that there's a difference between 'visually undetectable' and 'visually undetected'; someone who hides successfully has not been seen, but not because they cannot be seen.

Even among people who consider an attack by a hiding creature to deny Dex bonus, there's argument as to whether the attacker gains the +2 bonus for 'Attacker invisible'.

So the reason you can't find where it says that... is because it doesn't actually say anywhere "An attack from a successfully hiding creature denies the defender his Dex bonus to AC".

3) If a character double moves through 55 unconcealed and uncovered squares, but he ends his turn in a 5' square that has concealment or cover, can he make a hide check?

If he's not being observed, that should be fine. (Assuming you mean 55 feet of open squares, not 55 5-foot squares!)

Are the penalties on Hide check due to movement meant for a character that is already hidden or for one that is going to be hiding?

I believe it's for movement while hiding. If you want to move down the shadowy corridor without being noticed, you either move at half speed or take penalties. If you want to stroll down the shadowy corridor in plain sight and hide at the end, you can move at normal speed.

4) If a character has cover in relation to the opponent who is not directly observing him, he can make a Hide check. But what happens when the opponent moves to a new spot and the hidden character no longer has cover in relation to the opponent. Is the character still hidden or does he automatically come out of hiding? Along the same vein, what happens if a character is in a square with concealment or cover, hides, and then moves to a square without concealment or hiding? Is he automatically out of hiding?

If you don't have cover or concealment, you can't hide. So yes - if you leave the shadowy corridor and sneak into the empty, well-lit room, you'll be seen.

5) Lastly, here is an example of an issue we had recently. A rogue is accosted by a town guard, the rogue runs around the corner of a building (let's say 10' after the corner, and with full concealment and cover since there is no line of sight). The rogue then uses his Hide skill, and readies an action to attack (either with ranged or melee) the guardman. When the guard comes around the corner, is the guard flat-footed to the rogue? The moment he comes around the corner, the rogue no longer has cover or concealment against the guard.

If the encounter has already started, and you're still in combat rounds, the guard is not flat-footed.

If the rogue was relying on the cover of the building to hide, then once that cover no longer applies, he is not hidden.

-Hyp.

 

[Arravis]

Good answers Hypersmurf.
I'm sort of stunned that there is no clarity on this issue (bit of a pun there). You would think its one of those things that would be critical to know with exactness, since a core class relies on it so much. It's dissapointing to see it neglected.

Part of my confusion on this seems to be that I think of hiding as a state someone is in or is not. I hadn't seen it as something a character redoes constantly. For some reason I thought of hiding as something someone does at a viable location (square with concealment or cover), then the individual may move on to squares without concelment or cover. I thought of the hiding character as being in the "hiding" state, and thus no needed to re-enter it until discovered. It seems to be more of an event that is determined per individual 5' square and shifting circumstances.

 

[Hypersmurf]

For some reason I thought of hiding as something someone does at a viable location (square with concealment or cover), then the individual may move on to squares without concelment or cover.

Let's look at the example of the well-lit empty room again.

Under that interpretation, the rogue could hide in the shadows in the corridor, and then sneak through the middle of the pristine white featureless room while retaining his 'hiding' condition. He can walk past the sentry standing in that room, and as long as his Hide check is better than the sentry's Spot check, the sentry can't see him in the white room, because the corridor he came from is dimly lit.

And if there's a corner in the corridor, it's even better - the rogue can hide without the need for a check, since total cover obviates the need for a Hide check. And then he can, in the 'hiding' condition he's achieved, walk unseen across the white room.

I'd be inclined to call for a Hide check whenever a/ circumstances of the cover or concealment being used change, or b/ your movement speed (none, half, full, run/charge/attack) changes. And if the concealment changes from 'some' to 'none' (like going from the dim corridor into the white room), a Hide check is called for, but impossible to make, so the character is spotted.

-Hyp.

 

[Arravis]

It is clear from reading up on this that you are correct on it not being a "mode". Unfortunately it would seem that following a target through a busy street full of people would be impossible, since the rogue would never get a hide check (being soft cover, from the SRD: "nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check").

 

[Hypersmurf]

It is clear from reading up on this that you are correct on it not being a "mode". Unfortunately it would seem that following a target through a busy street full of people would be impossible, since the rogue would never get a hide check (being soft cover, from the SRD: "nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check").

It depends what you mean.

There's a difference between "There are fifty people behind me" and "There are fifty people behind me, and one of them is following me!"

The rogue might not be able to be unseen while following, but that doesn't mean he can't be unremarkable...

-Hyp.

 

[MarkB]

It depends what you mean.

There's a difference between "There are fifty people behind me" and "There are fifty people behind me, and one of them is following me!"

The rogue might not be able to be unseen while following, but that doesn't mean he can't be unremarkable...

-Hyp.

Well put. Would you play that out as a Disguise check or a Bluff check?

 

[mikebr99]

"Tail Someone" & "Blend into a crowd" are detailed in complete adventurer... and it's expanded description of the hide skill.

Mike

 

[buzz]

I was going to point you tot he thread I had a while back where I got answers from WotC customer support, but that got lost in the last site crash.

Quick version: if you have not been Spot-ed, the creature who did not Spot you loses their Dex bonus to AC. Attacking reveals your position, barring a ranged attack + sniping (described in the Hide skill).

And Hypersmurf is spot-on as usual (pun intended).

 

[Nail]

Quick version: if you have not been Spot-ed, the creature who did not Spot you loses their Dex bonus to AC.

I get that CustServe said such a thing.

...But where are the rules for that in the PH 3.5e?