Some thoughts on D&D warfare

[Celebrim]

A commoner survives with 1sp per WEEK.

Even if we assume that average wages for a non-skilled worker is 1 s.p. per day, this can't possibly be true. Let's assume commoners make about 300 s.p. per year. They don't need all of that to surive, and they pay about 30% of that in taxes, leaving them with 210 s.p. per year. We know from history that that medieval peasants were substitance farmers, that barely made enough to survive in the good years and starved in the bad. That implies that much anything less than 4 s.p. per week starves the population and is unsustainable, and in any event noone would willingly take wages that low. Skilled labor earned 3-5 s.p. per day, and so would expect a minimum profit of 12-20 s.p. per week.

But our first assumption is false. A quick look over the official price lists and the profession and craft skills shows that 3rd edition has moved to a defacto gold peice standard for wages. The silver peice standard is simply unworkable under the rules and any meta-rule which suggest labor could be hired for less than 1 g.p. per day will ultimately led to economic paradoxes if you try to game these assumptions out (of course so will the craft rules but that's a different discussion). In short, D&D peasants require probably 2-4 g.p. per week to survive. Skilled labor will demand somewhat more than that, but unfortunately the profession rules are equally a mess because they imply all professions require equal skill and earn equal ammounts of pay.

 

[S'mon]

Under that very narrow definition, I agree with Gizmo too. After all, I'm also appealing to demographics, I've just got a slightly different demographic answer. First, I recognize that the only purposes of the 'Warrior' class is to a) be backwards compatible with previous editions, and b) to ensure that 1st level PC's are still exceptional members of the population.

Another metagame justification is that they're a _lot_ easier to stat than Fighters! Although ease of GM use was unlikely to have been a WoTC motivation... :\
Personally (a) and (b) both work for me, (b) especially so - IMC only about 1% the population are PC-class, whereas maybe 5-10% are Warriors.

BTW IMC the typical male adult villager is something like Expert-2 AC 10 hit points: 8 ATT: +1 dam: 1d6+1 (staff or club wielded 2-handed). He can probably drive off a wolf at a pinch - certainly a housecat - but is no match for a typical Fighter-1 PC.

The typical inexperienced soldier IMC - say straight from boot camp in a professional army, or a city watchman in a peaceful town - is something like War-1 ST 14 CO 14 AC 13 (studded) hit points: 10 ATT: +4 (weapon focus) dam: 1d10+3 (halberd) or Power Attack ATT + 3 dam: 1d10+5. He's nearly as a good as a typical Fighter-1 PC in a straight fight, backed up by his mates he can be confident of victory.

 

[S'mon]

Ok - I'm not talking about the sky falling either - I'm talking about a 1st level character being capable of the sort of influence in a local setting that, it appears to me from your orc-raiding-village example, you're aiming for 3rd level. Still - IMC it requires a party of 1st level characters to have this sort of influence.

I tried for years to keep up the pretense from 1e that 1st level PCs were already exceptional individuals; but the players don't believe it and the 3e ruleset doesn't support it. It worked in 1e, it doesn't work anymore. Players see 1st level PCs as talented novices, I am happy to go along with that. My demographics mean rather more War-2+ goblins and orcs than standard, but that doesn't seem to be a problem. They mean much more plausible communities and armies that are capable of defending themselves against high CR threats of comparable EL.

 

[gizmo33]

A commoner survives with 1sp per WEEK.

I thought the 3E DMG said the wage for a laborer is 1 sp/day. A lot of medieval references say 1 pence (d) per day. Assuming 1 d= 1 sp; and looking at figures for basic infantry I think 3 sp/day for food+wage would work. 1 million gp/year for an army of 10,000 is about right by those figures.

However, IMO the DM has factors to consider before he allows the ruler of his kingdom to elect to pocket the 1 million gps or turn it into magic items. Unless he's working with a pretty heavy cash economy, much of the 1 million gp would be in the form of food, ale, new shoes, etc. You couldn't put 1 million gp of wheat on the market and expect to get it's value for it - assuming that you spent the reasources to collect, record, and manage it - all detracting from it's value. Imagine the colossal rat-swarms that you'd have to fight.

So a 10,000 person army would not, IMO require 1 million actual gold pieces to be available and spent. There's also the question of how much loot from conquest would form the pay of the soldiers. Conquering a city and splitting the wealth with the soldiers is an easier way to pay them than to cart along millions of gps.

The bulk of the troops will use clubs and spears, not shiny longswords.

Actual weapons are probably much cheaper in history than in DnD. Another "pro-mook army" houserule would take a serious look at the cost of a longbow for example. IIRC one medieval expense sheet listed longbows at 2 shillings each, which would be 24 sp each if you accept my 1d=1sp conversion.

The DM could rule that feudal service obligations provide a ruler with cheaper sources of food, weapons, armor, and horses than what the PCs are charged according to the PHB. Perhaps the price to PCs of such items is a result of special taxes, guild regulations, or some such. In fact, such a "tax" on swords would not be without precedent - it would keep people from raising dangerous private armies within the realm.

The bulk of the armies in my campaign have always been raised from people assumed to have their own equipment, so I've never thought about a ruler taking 10,000 people who only own some peasant rags and giving them all the necessary stuff - I imagine the expense of doing that *would* be hideous!

 

[S'mon]

As should be obvious by now, S'mons demographics are intended to address a completely different issue than the problems that I have. If I would be so bold as to provide a summary, it seems like S'mon is very much interested in the question, "If the campaign goes for a sufficient length, how can I keep the PC's from being able to take over the world on a whim?" As such, his army has to not just be able to protect the kingdom from a maruading horde of Frost Giants, but also from a maruading band of 20th level characters. He states, "No 20th level group in their right mind would assume they could destroy this force single-handed..." That's well and good, but note that I stated one of my assumptions was: "...groups of 15th level characters simply don't exist..." So you can be pretty sure that when he rolls out a list that contains a 16th level character, 2 15th level characters, and 4 14th level characters that we've got some pretty strong differences in our conceptual preferences.

While that's true re my intent, I have never actually seen a group of 20th level characters in my 3e campaign; even in 1e I think they were rare and wouldn't likely be Fighter-Cleric-Rogue-Wizard, more likely whoever the 3 top heroes in the Empire happened to be. But I do see groups of 15th level characters, they have to be dealt with somehow.

While armies of 30,000 are very typical IMC (eg the horde of Sigurd, the Royal Army of Thrinia (RIP)) there is no army of 30,000 currently in my campaign world where the weakest soldier is War-3 - like I said, I'd use that for the equivalent of Caesar's Gallic legions or Alexander's Macedonians, exceptional, highly experienced combat-hardened forces. A typical army IMC is 50% first level, ie for 30,000:

15,000 1st
7,500 2nd
3,750 3rd
etc

With PC class characters being 1 level lower than NPC class, so a typical army commander might be a Fighter-13.

 

[gizmo33]

How does your average army, armed with bows and swords, kill a flying (500 feet in the air), stoneskinned, wizard, accompanied by a flying cleric, when the wizard has 10 wands of fireball and can just teleport away when things start looking bad?

Ah, the flying, fireballing wizard. It's almost worthy of it's own thread. In fact, I think flying is about 90% of the problem that people have with mooks in mass combat.

 

[Celebrim]

I thought the 3E DMG said the wage for a laborer is 1 sp/day. A lot of medieval references say 1 pence (d) per day. Assuming 1 d= 1 sp; and looking at figures <snip>....Actual weapons are probably much cheaper in history than in DnD...<snip>

Finally a post I can fully agree with.

 

[gizmo33]

Finally a post I can fully agree with.

Whew! Just in time for the weekend.

 

[leporidae]

You adopted WWII era tactics. You took a large force of 'riflemen' and distributed them over a large area. Then you hid at strategic positions 'tanks', and provided the whole with 'artillery support'.

I agree with your assessment.

One other factor in which D&D warfare is more like modern than medeval is the availability of rapid long distance communication. In this case the evil mages were able to call for help from one of their cities and request troops be rushed forward to set up the ambush. (The party had just wiped out a small border keep.)

I was never able to come up with overall level demographics that made sense across the campaign world. My rule of thumb was that the overall level profile of a population depended on how much conflict they saw. The limit (for example, in the starting Human/Dwarf Republic which was isolated from any other civilized area and caught between a Goblin Hive, a horde of horse riding Orc Barbarians, and the Association of Evil Mages) for a population was to have Player's Handbook character classed individuals according to a geometric distribution. 1/2 of 1st level or higher, 1/4 of 2nd level or higher and so on. (Once the party gained higher levels I eventually gave up on figuring out population distributions and decided there were as many high level individuals around as it took to keep things interesting.) A more peaceful area, or one where the majority of the population was prohibited from weapon/magical training, would have a DMG RAW character class distribution.

By the end of the campaign I decided front line troops were 4th level fighters on average, backed up by small elite units of 8th+ level mixed class individuals, and even then they wouldn't take the field without the ability to neutralize their opponent's mages (i.e. artillery/air support).

 

[Hejdun]

The bulk of the armies in my campaign have always been raised from people assumed to have their own equipment, so I've never thought about a ruler taking 10,000 people who only own some peasant rags and giving them all the necessary stuff - I imagine the expense of doing that *would* be hideous!

Which would necessitate, of course, that armies be raised only from noble children (the only ones with enough money to have the equipment to actually be competent combatants). If you want a large army, you have to either conscript or provide wages and equipment.