Some Thoughts on Revising Multi-classing feats

[sabrinathecat]

I was talking with one of my fellow gamers today about thinks we'd like to see fixed in 4e, but now never will (officially), so would have to be house ruled experiments.

One of them is the Multi-classing system, which really seems to be uneven and inconsistent.
Rouge, Warlock, Ranger, and Assassin (from Dragon Magazine) were all pretty straight-forward: you get to use their extra-damage-dice system once per encounter. Others, not so much. Maybe you get access to class feats or training in a skill from that class.

So, this was my suggestion, based loosely on the greater&lesser fighting style/school feats.
1st Multi-class feat: Skill, weapon/implement proficiency, feat access, and one At-will as an Encounter power.
2nd Multi-class feat: One of the class features from the second class. (The damage dice from strikers, the mark from defenders, healing from leaders, ??? from controllers)
Feats can be taken in either order.
Once both feats are taken, any power can be taken from either class. Don't like your lvl7 options from your primary class? See what you like from the secondary class. It does not take a feat for every single power.

I think this is a fairly simple system, and lessens, if not destroys, the need for Hybrids (a concept that bugged the hell out of me as totally unneccesary and needless).

So, tell me how wrong I am.
Open fire.
The target is blindfolded and on the range.

(Or say you like the idea, and have ideas for improving it!)

 

[Balesir]

I love the core idea of the original 4E multi-classing with feats, but the execution fell sadly short IME as we have seen that it has dissappointed in play. As a result I think your aim is sound - I think there is a really nice system in there trying to get out - but I disagree with how you have split the advantages gained. I'll try to give an alternative (and some reasons).

The problem I have with multi-class feats as published and as reconfigured above is partly that they form a no-brainer alternative to feats like skill training. When, with one feat, you can get an extra trained skill plus a bunch of other stuff, why take skill training at all? (You might say why take it anyway, but I think that depends on the campaign focus, to some degree). The original 4E version also had the rather onerous "extra feat per power" requirement that seemed really over the top for marginal gain, in general.

So, what do I suggest? Well, this is off the top of my head, rather, but here goes:

- Each base multi-class feat should give the following: membership of the class for the purposes of Paragon Paths, skills, feats and weapon/implement proficiency; access to the non-At-Will powers of the second class, subject to the "never more of each power type than of main class" restriction as in the original rules.

- An At-Will power swap and class features should come from additional feats. More powerful features might be given as once-per-Encounter abilities by the first feat and "full-fat" by a second; weaker ones might come in full from one feat.

As before, all except the Bard may take only one core MC feat.

The main reason for the "feat for an At-Will swap" is frankly Twin Strike; getting that without the Ranger's lack of surges would make Ranger MC too much of a "default option", I think. I could be persuaded otherwise, though, by a good argument.

The idea in general is to open up swaps for only margianl gains in terms of "optimisation" simply and painlessly, and then add costs for getting the nectar of class features without the compromises that may come from selecting the full class (low hit points, poor proficiency sets, low surges). As [MENTION=89838]sabrinathecat[/MENTION] said of the previous suggestions - comments and feedback gratefully received!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, the problem with the base MC feats is they are generally better than other options. You end up with characters getting some MC feat just because its better than skill training. I had a warlock Take Warrior of the Wild once just so he could get a skill, so what sort of 'Ranger' is this guy? None at all of course... Obviously there will always be some quirks in any game like 4e and its not a big deal, but it does seem like the better approach would be something like you can grab a power swap (daily or encounter) with a feat and be 'multi-classed', you've now got something relatively small but useful from another class that you'll use. A second feat could then give you something like an encounter class feature use and another power swap. If you have those 2 feats then PMCing should be open and there should be a fix to that so you get an AP feature or something close to it. NOW you can do an at-will swap and unlimited class feature use, you are truly both classes! That seems nicer to me thematically too. You grow into it in a bit more logical way and you also don't burn such a stupid number of feats. If its tweaked right it should pretty close to obviate the need for hybrids/be virtually the same thing (though there may be some builds that will suffer for a level or two).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Even though I generally hated 4Ed's feat-based MC system, because of who I am and how my PC concepts enter ally shape up, I found that I at least looked at those feats for every 4Ed PC I designed. Even after the hybrid rules were introduced.

The few gave you a lot, but, IMHO, sometimes not the right stuff. And I found it especially irksome that you couldn't choose powers from both classes. It seemed backwards to me; it made me feel like you were MCed in name only.

I'd have preferred that the MC feats simply gave you access to all of the new class' Paragon Paths (which not all did- see Ranger PPs) and the ability to freely choose powers from both class lists (without granting any as a bonus). Then, subsequent MC feats would let you learn some of the other class features.

FWIW, I also never felt that burning a feat to become trained in a single skill was worth it. So even if some of the MC feats didn't grant skills, I never would have chosen Skill Training, I'd simply revise my PC concept.

 

[tuxgeo]

< snip > So, what do I suggest? Well, this is off the top of my head, rather, but here goes:

- Each base multi-class feat should give the following: membership of the class for the purposes of Paragon Paths, skills, feats and weapon/implement proficiency; access to the non-At-Will powers of the second class, subject to the "never more of each power type than of main class" restriction as in the original rules.

- An At-Will power swap and class features should come from additional feats. More powerful features might be given as once-per-Encounter abilities by the first feat and "full-fat" by a second; weaker ones might come in full from one feat.

As before, all except the Bard may take only one core MC feat.

I'm liking this. It echoes 4E's Hybrid class system by not giving best-of-two classes' armor proficiencies.

This setup could conceivably lead to multiclassed PCs who lack training in the core skill of their second class; but that's the player's risk. The player needs to think it through.

 

[Balesir]

PMCing should be open and there should be a fix to that so you get an AP feature or something close to it.

D'oh - I totally forgot PMCing. That should maybe substitute as a prerequisite for the second tier feats giving class features or something. I need to read up on them - we haven't seen any in our game at all (which suggests they may need a bit of TLC...)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I would offer a 1st level multiclass feat for every class that grants an at-will and skill training, but beyond that, I think you need to look at the class-specific abilities that make sense.


I wouldn't allow free power choices. I'd buff the power swap feats, however.

Heroic Multiclassing

Novice Power
You can swap one encounter power from your own class with an encounter power from your multiclass. You can still use the original encounter power once per day.

Acolyte Power
You can swap one utility power from your class with an utility power from your multiclass. You can also gain the benefits of the Skill Power feat (only for skills from your class or mutliclass skill list) or pick two additional languages.

Adept Power
You can swap one daily power from your class with a daily power from your multiclass. You gain also Skill Focus feat (only for skills from your class or mutliclass skill list), or learn 2 additional languages.



And I would like to have some additional paragon level feats for multiclasses. I'd make them class specific.
These are "Deluxe Feats" because paragon multiclassing takes away all those neat paragon features. I think that's a pretty harsh price and it should be compensated somehow.


Paragon Multiclassing

Multiclass Skill Training
Prerequisite: Level 11+, Paragon Multiclassing
Choose two skills from your class or multiclass skill lists. You gain training in these skills, or skill focus.

Multiclass Skill Power:
Prerequisite: Level 11+, Paragon Multiclassing
You gain two skill powers from skills of you class or multiclass skill list.

Paragon Multiclassing Training
Prerequisite: Level 11+, Paragon Multiclassing
Choose one at-will power from your class or multiclass. You gain that power as an at-will power.


Paragon Fighter Multiclass Experience
Prerequisite: Level 11+, Paragon Multiclassing Fighter
When you hit an opponent with an opportunity attack provoked by movement, you can end his movement.
When you spend an action point to gain an extra action, until the end of your next turn you can mark every enemy you attack. If any marked opponent make an attack not including you, you can take an immediate reaction to make a basic melee attack against that opponent.

Paragon Rogue Multiclass Experience
Prerequisite: Level 11+, Paragon Multiclassing Rogue
You gain Rogue Weapon Training or the Sharpshooter Talent.
When you spend an action point to gain an extra action, you gain the benefits of the Rogue's sneak attack feature until the end of your next turn.

Paragon Ranger Multiclass Experience
Prerequisite: Level 11+, Paragon Multiclassing Ranger
You gain the Ranger's "Prime Shot" ability.
When you spend an action point to gain an extra action, you gain the Hunter's Quarry feature until the end of your turn. The target stops being your quarry as usual, or when you first inflict damag with hunter's quarry.

Paragon Wizard Multiclass Experience
Prerequisite: Level 11+, Paragon Multiclassing Wizard
You gain the Wizards Implement Feature.
When you spend an action point to gain an extra action, you also recover one Wizard encounter power you have already used.

Paragon Warlord Multiclass Experience
Prerequisite: Level 11, Paragon Multiclassing Warlord
You gain the Warlord's Combat Leader feature.
When you spend an action point to gain an extra action, you can use Inspiring Word once before the end of your next turn.

Paragon Paladin Multiclass Experience
Prerequisite: Level 11, Paragon Multiclassing Paladin
You gain the Paladin's Lay on Hands Feature.
Whe you spend an action point to gain an extra action, you can use Divine Challenge until the end of your next turn. The challenge ends as usual, or when your divine challenge first inflicts damage on the target.

Paragon Warlock Multiclass Experience
Prerequisite: Level 11, Paragon Multiclassing Paladin
You gain the Warlock's Shadow Walk feature.
Whe you spend an action point to gain an extra action, you can use Warlock's Curse until the end of your next turn. The curse ends as usual, or when you first inflict damage with the curse to a target.

Paragon Cleric Multiclass Experience
Prerequisite: Level 11, Paragon Multiclassing Cleric
You gain the Cleric's Healer's Lore feature.
When you spend an action point to gain an extra action, you can use use Healing Word once before the end of your next turn.

Paragon Feat Writer Experience
Prerequisite: Level 11, Paragon Writing
You can write feats during work hours.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I think about 2 feats are the right cost for full access to multiclassing. Paragon multiclassing is just too much and I would not recommend it for anyone as it is now.

One feat as they stand now, and the second that allows swapping powers. I would probably leave at-wills alone though. If a player wants at-wills, go for Hybrids.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree with [MENTION=55066]Dice4Hire[/MENTION] that the current 3 feat cost plus giving up a PP for the more dubious PMC benefits was too harsh. That was the core of the problem [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION] noted as well. NOBODY I ever played with PMCed. There were frankly maybe 2 barely viable PMC options that both involved Ranger (to get full access to TS) and even those were probably ill-advised. There were a few other cases where taking the PS feats for another class could kind of make sense, but it was never really objectively a good idea, and the amount of 'other classness' you got was still pretty limited.

So, yeah, 2 feats as a cost to PMC wouldn't be too bad (considering you got other benefits), but then PMCs themselves have the fatal weakness of lacking any sort of actual power of their own. Its great to get access to another class' powers, but when you have to sacrifice ALL the other features of a PP to do it, then its clearly not worthwhile. IMHO there could be a 'PMC Feat' for each class that gave out some more PP like benefits. So you'd get some sort of AP function, and several powers. In effect PMCs would just be specialized PPs with a "must have the 2 MC feats for class X" as a requirement.

I think in the final analysis I'd go for that, you need 2 feats (one power swap and one MC feat, vs the 3 needed now) to take a PMC, but the PMC itself is just a PP, and doesn't take any other resources. As to the advantages given by the two feats... Hmmmmm, there are lots of viable suggestions. One could enable power swapping of encounter powers and the other could enable swapping of a single daily/utility power, and then if you have both you get some sort of class feature benefit, encounter use of an at-will, or something else thematic. It might be something like:

Acolyte Power - Pick another class. You are now considered a member of this class as well as your current class for all purposes. You may select encounter powers from the list for either class (this would inherently also allow swapping out existing powers via retraining of course). If you use an Implement you may use it with implement powers of either class.

Adept Power - Requirement: Acolyte Power. You may select one daily or utility power from your second class. In addition select a skill from the class skill list of your second class and gain training in this skill. (Class specific versions of this would then list a class feature benefit for MCing into each class, this could have been obviated if WotC had just marked one feature of every class in its description as being an MC benefit).

As I said above PMCs would just be a form of PP with whatever structure the author decided was appropriate given the nature of the second class. They would probably just generally follow the guidelines for normal PPs in a general sense.

NOTE: this kind of scheme isn't ideal for grafting onto 4e as it stands now since it does require writing a PMC for each class. It would probably work, but I'm dubious mst DMs are ambitious enough to do it. If I was going to build 'MCing' into 4e in the best way I think I'd just do something totally different.

 

[tuxgeo]

I would prefer to let each player choose, for each character, which 4E multiclassing feats to use.

For PCs who tend toward Paragon multiclassing, they can use the existing framework with no changes. However for PCs that are not going to take Paragon multiclassing, introduce two new feats (not revised versions of existing feats) to accomplish the multiclassing. Based on Balesir's first notion, here's my new draft:

Branching Out [Multiclass]
Prerequisite: no other multiclassing feat taken
Benefit: Select a character class other than your own. That class is your "branch" class. You gain membership in that class for purposes of qualifying for feats and for paragon paths, and you gain all implement proficiencies and weapon proficiencies of that class. You can add the implement proficiency bonus of any implement with which you have proficiency to the attack rolls of any power you use that has the implement keyword.
In addition, you also gain the ability to select any new encounter power you gain as you rise in levels from either your primary class or your branch class, subject to the sole restriction that you may not have more encounter powers of your branch class than you have of your primary class. Subject to that same restriction, you may use the standard retraining rules to swap any encounter power you have of either of your classes for an encounter power of the same level or lower of your other class.

Branching Farther
Prerequisite: 5th level or higher, and the Branching Out feat
Benefit: You may swap one daily or utility power of your primary class to get a power of the same type (i.e. daily or utility) of the same level or lower from your branch class. If you later retrain that power, you must select its replacement from your branch class.
In addition, when you reach 11th level -- or immediately, if you are already 11th level or higher -- you can choose to replace one of your at-will powers with an at-will power from your branch class; this is outside of the standard retraining rules. Also, you can select any new daily or utility power you gain from either of your classes, with the dual restriction that you may not have more daily powers of your branch class than you have of your primary class, and you may not have more utility powers of your branch class than you have of your primary class.

Nothing here gives class features. I'm afraid people might have to make do with class-specific and feature-specific feats for that. Several such feats already exist.