Something, I think, Every GM/DM Should Read

[pemerton]

I have seen this a number of times with players new to rules sets. I hear the question "What can I do?" and I try to remember to return with "What would you like to do?" and then put that into whatever mechanic fits best or makes the most sense at the time.

I would want to add to this - sometimes the player will really be asking "what can I do that is likely to achieve my (implicit or explicit) goals?", and so is looking not only for options but for odds. This is where shared mechanics can help.

 

[pming]

Hiya

I also wanna put on the record right now this:
I have never foiled a players actions based on some "love of the monster" or being a "sore loser" - thats absurd. In fact, there have been fights that I have planned for weeks and the players in 90 seconds, come up with a plan to defeat me so soundly that I don't even pick up a die. I think that's awesome! - and I'll even reward bonus x.p. for something like that!

I'm right there with ya!

In a Powers & Perils ( www.powersandperils.org for the rules, if you're interested ) campaign I ran a 'while ago' (maybe...12 - 15 years?), the PC's were tracking down the secret lair of a clan of goblins that had been surprisingly crafty and successful at raiding. After multiple play sessions of searching, questioning, and general wandering about, the party finally found the secret hidden lair. The Goblin King was a warrior-shaman kind, of significant intelligence and charisma. Anyway, at the end of the session, the PC's had been successfully suckerd into a bottleneck trap by the goblins! The goblin's in hiding waited for their Goblin King to unleash his magical might! Initiative was determined, the Goblin King started chanting his spell...the PC's presseed forward (as expected) only to be shot at by bows, spears and daggers. The next round the Goblin Kings spell (a lighting-swarm) is finished. I roll for casting success...100. Abysmal Failure. Rolling on the Abysmal Failure chart...13..."Loose 1d100 Energy Points". Ouch. Rolling d100...98. This reduces the Goblin Kings Energy level to somewhere south of -50 or so (at 0 you die). O_O In a blinding flash of internallized electrical energy, the Goblin King explodes on the spot. ... The goblins then stare at the PC's for a round...and the PC's stare back. Dead silence. Then the goblin warrior champion steps up and, in halting speech, says "Uh, we stop now. We go away. Not bother humans again. Deal?" The PC's agreed, and the menace of the Goblin King was at an end.

Funny and unexpected. And only because I let the dice fall where they may.

So, yeah, I agree with you. As for the original post link...I DM that way regardless of system. If we're playing pathfinder and someone wants to trip someone, he can try at a penalty to-hit. If he has the Trip feat, we use that. But, basically, players can try anything within reason (e.g, a fighter trying to cast a Death Spell off a scroll isn't going to work). The game is about using your imagination. The rules are there for the DM and Players to use to come up with probable chances for success or failure for actions.

PS: I'm not a big fan of 'perfect balance'; I'm more of a "1e Balance" kind of guy. In other words, I look at the effectiveness of stuff over an entire campaign span...fighters rock at level 1, wizards rock at level 20, and that *is* balance to me.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Neonchameleon]

.Your argument here appears to be that, absent definitive rules in the rulebook, the player's subjective understanding of the game-world should trump the referee's subjective understanding of the game-world in matter's pertaining to the player's character.

No. My argument is that both matter - and if there are definitive rules in the rulebook the player's understanding and DMs can be easily aligned by that. If there aren't then you need to work to get them to line up - which is why there are arguments. I was presenting the side of the argument [MENTION=48381]walter[/MENTION] Bob was asking about which is, of course, only one side of the argument. I can happily run the other, but no one seems to need it round here.

 

[NewJeffCT]

here is the other sticking point to this argument
why is it ok for players to cheat and not the dm?

if a player's number one weapon of choice dealt poison damage, and he was fighting undead, he would automatically know poison is useless vs undead, why? because it's in the rules. So, if the player elects NOT to use his #1 weapon, isn't he cheating (assuming of course that no kind of knowledge checks were rolled before hand) - or at least I believe the phrase is meta-gaming?

I tend to go by the 1E/2E rules that list how common a monster is. If the monster is listed as "Common" by the books, I assume that most PCs would have at least basic knowledge of the monster. Uncommon monsters would be identifiable, but PCs probably would not know any unusual powers/weaknesses. Rare monsters would be known only by rumors/legends unless the PC had a specific skill or had reason to know about it (i.e., my mother was killed by a mind flayer when I was 10, I barely escaped with my life thanks to her sacrifice.)

 

[Rel]

In a Powers & Perils ( www.powersandperils.org for the rules, if you're interested ) campaign I ran a 'while ago' (maybe...12 - 15 years?)...

[Hijack]

Cool! Thanks for the Powers & Perils link! I've still got the books from when I bought it at the toy store when I was 16 but nice to see that they are available online. Man we had a ton of fun with that game. I still regard it as some of the best value I ever got for my gaming buck since it cost me $5.

[/Hijack]

 

[The Shaman]

My argument is that both matter - and if there are definitive rules in the rulebook the player's understanding and DMs can be easily aligned by that.

As this thread and the one started by Wik demonstrate, "easily" isn't necessarily the case where the rules and the game-world collide - in fact, for some gamers following the rules as written can be the source of the problem rather than the solution.

I was presenting the side of the argument [MENTION=48381]walter[/MENTION] Bob was asking about which is, of course, only one side of the argument. I can happily run the other, but no one seems to need it round here.

Fair 'nuf.

 

[The Shaman]

In a Powers & Perils ( www.powersandperils.org for the rules, if you're interested ) campaign I ran a 'while ago' (maybe...12 - 15 years?), the PC's were tracking down the secret lair of a clan of goblins that had been surprisingly crafty and successful at raiding. After multiple play sessions of searching, questioning, and general wandering about, the party finally found the secret hidden lair. The Goblin King was a warrior-shaman kind, of significant intelligence and charisma. Anyway, at the end of the session, the PC's had been successfully suckerd into a bottleneck trap by the goblins! The goblin's in hiding waited for their Goblin King to unleash his magical might! Initiative was determined, the Goblin King started chanting his spell...the PC's presseed forward (as expected) only to be shot at by bows, spears and daggers. The next round the Goblin Kings spell (a lighting-swarm) is finished. I roll for casting success...100. Abysmal Failure. Rolling on the Abysmal Failure chart...13..."Loose 1d100 Energy Points". Ouch. Rolling d100...98. This reduces the Goblin Kings Energy level to somewhere south of -50 or so (at 0 you die). O_O In a blinding flash of internallized electrical energy, the Goblin King explodes on the spot. ... The goblins then stare at the PC's for a round...and the PC's stare back. Dead silence. Then the goblin warrior champion steps up and, in halting speech, says "Uh, we stop now. We go away. Not bother humans again. Deal?" The PC's agreed, and the menace of the Goblin King was at an end.

Funny and unexpected. And only because I let the dice fall where they may.

That is an awesome story, and well worth repeating!

So, yeah, I agree with you. As for the original post link...I DM that way regardless of system. If we're playing pathfinder and someone wants to trip someone, he can try at a penalty to-hit. If he has the Trip feat, we use that. But, basically, players can try anything within reason (e.g, a fighter trying to cast a Death Spell off a scroll isn't going to work). The game is about using your imagination. The rules are there for the DM and Players to use to come up with probable chances for success or failure for actions.

That's my approach as well.

PS: I'm not a big fan of 'perfect balance'; I'm more of a "1e Balance" kind of guy. In other words, I look at the effectiveness of stuff over an entire campaign span...fighters rock at level 1, wizards rock at level 20, and that *is* balance to me.

Satori.

 

[TheUltramark]

ok, this just in:
I asked the 7 people I play with "can you knock a snake prone"
my rules lawyer said "sure" 1 other agreed with him- and 4 of them said "no - already on the ground"
the best dm of the lot of us said "depends when in the fight it is. In the first round, if the players have all their abilities, probably not - meaning as a rule no you can't...but...if its a last ditch, hail mary, back-against-the-wall effort, scraping the bottom of the barrel type attack, I probably would allow it"

the rules lawyer and the dm then decided that this particular instance is rare, but, there are two conflicting rules. the power clearly states the target is knocked prone, however, under the prone condition rule it says a condition of being knocked prone is you are lying on the ground...the three of us agreed that meant that before being knocked prone you had to be...you know....not laying on the ground, and the dm and the RL then decided that a house rule discussion would have to take place monday night.

First of all this sucks for me, basically my first encounter with the pencil will almost surely be delayed while we hash this out. On the bright side, I'll get to watch The Event and/or Raw and tip a few back while they argue. I wish I never would have seen that stupid video.

 

[Barastrondo]

take the specifics out of it, don't focus on the undead vs poison (or the hydra vs prone) - your weapon of choice is "type B" damage. Your character comes across a monster you have never fought before, never seen before, or for that matter never heard of. You are going to use your weapon and its "type B" damage.

Eliminating all the context makes this question unanswerable, because the opinions that people hold toward this are rooted in context.

Consider the difference between these two situations. In one, the players run into a troll with a ring of fire resistance. Though this surprises the players when they find he's immune to fire, the reason is easily discovered if they win.

In another situation, the DM decides he wanted to surprise his players, and makes a troll immune to fire. The players don't know why this troll is immune to fire, and have no real chance of finding out; worse, the characters never discover an explanation. The only answer the DM gives is "I wanted to change things up to make things interesting."

The fight with the troll in both cases is essentially the same. But in the first case, the ring and the troll are two established factors in the world, there's every reason to believe a troll would value and wear such a ring if he found it, and the players get a ring of fire resistance if they beat him. In the second case, trolls are now established within the world as sometimes immune to fire, but the players have no way of knowing which ones might be that way because it's subject to DM whim, and the characters have really no way of knowing why this happened or how they can tell one of these variant trolls apart from the others other than trying to burn it.

Now, take this one step further. Let's say that in the first fight the DM says "The flame washes over the troll, but seems to roll off his skin like water without burning him; a ring on his left hand shines brightly as the fire flickers out." I think it's pretty evident that a player could say "I would not challenge the DM in the first case, but I would like some sort of explanation in the second case," and that could be considered an entirely sensible approach.

If YOU have seen the monster in the books many times, and know that it isn't immune to "type B damage" but when you attack, the dm says "sorry this monster is immune to type B damage" do you challenge the dm, or pull out a different gun?

It would depend on the context.

 

[nedjer]

ok, this just in:
I asked the 7 people I play with "can you knock a snake prone"
my rules lawyer said "sure" 1 other agreed with him- and 4 of them said "no - already on the ground"
the best dm of the lot of us said "depends when in the fight it is. In the first round, if the players have all their abilities, probably not - meaning as a rule no you can't...but...if its a last ditch, hail mary, back-against-the-wall effort, scraping the bottom of the barrel type attack, I probably would allow it"

the rules lawyer and the dm then decided that this particular instance is rare, but, there are two conflicting rules. the power clearly states the target is knocked prone, however, under the prone condition rule it says a condition of being knocked prone is you are lying on the ground...the three of us agreed that meant that before being knocked prone you had to be...you know....not laying on the ground, and the dm and the RL then decided that a house rule discussion would have to take place monday night.

First of all this sucks for me, basically my first encounter with the pencil will almost surely be delayed while we hash this out. On the bright side, I'll get to watch The Event and/or Raw and tip a few back while they argue. I wish I never would have seen that stupid video.

Why on earth would anyone spend more than 17 seconds resolving something like that? It's an RPG, there are too many rules/ guidelines for it to be completely unbreakable, so why not split the difference on any benefits/ disadvantages in the situation and get the action out of the books and back onto the table?

If anyone ain't good with that, you've like a garden shed yeah . . . stick a note on it saying 'rules symposium here today' lead them in then run out and lock the shed door