Something, I think, Every GM/DM Should Read

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The folks I game with take readily to the concept of separating out a mechanical condition from an in-game description, so for us "prone" can mean "sprawled inconveniently on its back," and "punch" can mean "grab behind the head, lift halfway up and throw into the ground."
This approach definitely has its advantages.

This was one of the arguments pertaining to classes in d20 - does the class fluff really have anything to do with the class abilities? Frex, the Soldier advanced class in d20 Modern can represent a Mafia goon, a Burgundian halberdier, a SWAT team member, or a guerilla as readily as it does a member of the military. One of the reasons I liked d20 Modern so much was this versatility with respect to the classes.
One of the nice side effects of this approach is that you effectively gain a wider variety of scenes that happen in an in-character context, while still keeping track of a relatively limited pool of mechanics. Quite fond of that approach, personally.
I can see that as well. Hit points - the abstract representation of toughness, skill, and luck - are perhaps the most venerable example of this. A 'hit' can be a described in a wide variety of ways, many of which do not come from an actual blow or wound. Frex, again using d20 Modern, characters in combat with firearms could be 'hit' by a riccochet which knocks brick-dust in their eyes or a near-miss which tears at their clothing or gear.

However, one of my take-aways from playing games like d20 Modern is that I prefer systems in which the mechanics specifically reinforce the experience of the game-world. The elegant fencing rules in Flashing Blades, the brutally lethal firearms and knife-fighting rules of Boot Hill - in my experience, these contribute to both genre-emulation and verisimilitude in the game-world in ways that more abstract systems do not, which is one of the reasons I moved away from d20 Modern, still my favorite generic roleplaying game, toward more purpose-built games.

It's also why I genuinely admire games like FATE and HeroQuest but will probably never play them. I think the mechanics of both systems are intriguing, but the prospect of actually running a game with either one holds little appeal for me. Horses for courses, again.
 

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So you have no trouble with a snake, in combat, being "knocked prone" then?

I would have no trouble with a coiled snake, or a snake that is coiled and poised to strike/spit (as does a rattlesnake or cobra) being knocked prone. I would have a problem with a sidewinder crawling across the ground being knocked prone.

Context is everything.

-2 to hit can reflect that loss of reach.

No. Reach is whether or not you can reach.

Context is everything.

At least, that is true in any game I am interested in running or playing in.

YMMV, of course.


RC
 

I wanna say that in all this argument about the prone rule that I am only defending my interpretation - not attacking anyone's game or rules or style of play.

[MENTION=3820]Barastrondo[/MENTION] - that would be a very interesting description of how the fighter grabs the snake behind the head and lifts it up into the air with his hammer.

The original attack in question was a punch knocking a snake prone, and I have to be honest, I am not so clear on how you punch a snake in the first place, but like I said before, I tend to allow ridiculous stuff anyway.

Context IS everything, with a thin blade or staff, or some other "thin" weapon (case by case ruling) I probably would allow a prone knock...but a punch?
 


Hit points - the abstract representation of toughness, skill, and luck - are perhaps the most venerable example of this. A 'hit' can be a described in a wide variety of ways, many of which do not come from an actual blow or wound. Frex, again using d20 Modern, characters in combat with firearms could be 'hit' by a riccochet which knocks brick-dust in their eyes or a near-miss which tears at their clothing or gear.

The humble hit point remains one of the staunchest examples of how mechanics and in-character description can vary.

However, one of my take-aways from playing games like d20 Modern is that I prefer systems in which the mechanics specifically reinforce the experience of the game-world. The elegant fencing rules in Flashing Blades, the brutally lethal firearms and knife-fighting rules of Boot Hill - in my experience, these contribute to both genre-emulation and verisimilitude in the game-world in ways that more abstract systems do not, which is one of the reasons I moved away from d20 Modern, still my favorite generic roleplaying game, toward more purpose-built games.

It's also why I genuinely admire games like FATE and HeroQuest but will probably never play them. I think the mechanics of both systems are intriguing, but the prospect of actually running a game with either one holds little appeal for me. Horses for courses, again.

I find myself torn, largely. I do like the specialized genre mechanics of some games, and the focused play experience they give is unmatched. But at the same time I also enjoy a game system that does interesting mash-ups with different genres, letting me play it differently each time. It's kind of like customizing your own motorcycle instead of going to Orange County Choppers; it probably won't be as good a job overall, but the fun is in the process.

[MENTION=3820]Barastrondo[/MENTION] - that would be a very interesting description of how the fighter grabs the snake behind the head and lifts it up into the air with his hammer.

Well, there are two separate issues here: how you could reskin a "punch," and what would happen as an example at our table. Hinge doesn't punch snakes as a rule; his attacks that knock prone involve a hammer or a shield bash, but if his player were to say "Hinge baits it into rearing up with a hammer feint, then knocks it silly," hells yes I would allow that.

The original attack in question was a punch knocking a snake prone, and I have to be honest, I am not so clear on how you punch a snake in the first place, but like I said before, I tend to allow ridiculous stuff anyway.

Context IS everything, with a thin blade or staff, or some other "thin" weapon (case by case ruling) I probably would allow a prone knock...but a punch?

Well, why a punch?

If we're talking about the Acquisitions Incorporated example of the zombie with knocking a hydra prone, there's no reason to rule a zombie's unarmed attack has to be a punch instead of a slam, overbear, what-have-you. (Especially in the context of that particular audience-participation game.)

If we're not talking about that example, I'm still curious why it has to be a punch. It's a rare system that doesn't allow a basic unarmed strike to take different forms, and mechanically differentiates the balled fist from a kick or an elbow or a knee strike. Heck, even Champions will have martial maneuvers named "Martial Punch" and stress "This might be an elbow strike or a quick knee."

The real question at the heart of my viewpoint is "When is it a good idea to tell players that their powers do not work, even though mechanically they would?" I think the answer is "rarely, and with the fairest of adjudication." If the default explanation seems to imply it -- "you can't punch a snake and knock it to the ground" -- there should be an opportunity to find an alternate explanation that works. So for me, "you can't punch a snake prone" is not a good answer for "why can't you use an unarmed combat maneuver to inflict the mechanics of the prone condition on a snake?" I find the creativity involved in describing maneuvers that achieve the same mechanical effect just so much more entertaining than a flat "no."
 

I would have no trouble with a coiled snake, or a snake that is coiled and poised to strike/spit (as does a rattlesnake or cobra) being knocked prone. I would have a problem with a sidewinder crawling across the ground being knocked prone.

Context is everything.
Indeed, and since combat powers are used in combat, where the snake (if it's an enemy) would presumably not just be crawling along the ground but positioning itself to attack, there shouldn't be an issue. Context.

No. Reach is whether or not you can reach.
The snake wouldn't have "reach" to begin with, when not prone. So a -2 penalty to hit can certainly be reflective of a reduced range of attack; sometime you're going to be just a bit too far for it to reach.
 

one of my take-aways from playing games like d20 Modern is that I prefer systems in which the mechanics specifically reinforce the experience of the game-world. The elegant fencing rules in Flashing Blades, the brutally lethal firearms and knife-fighting rules of Boot Hill - in my experience, these contribute to both genre-emulation and verisimilitude in the game-world in ways that more abstract systems do not, which is one of the reasons I moved away from d20 Modern, still my favorite generic roleplaying game, toward more purpose-built games.

It's also why I genuinely admire games like FATE and HeroQuest but will probably never play them. I think the mechanics of both systems are intriguing, but the prospect of actually running a game with either one holds little appeal for me.
I think this is a very interesting issue.

I think it's true that the mechanics help reinforce the experience of the gameworld. The flipside of that is that the gameworld that is actually experienced - as opposed to the abstract object which is the fictional gameworld in all its totality - reflects the mechanics.

Playing Rolemaster makes the physical state of a PC's body a very salient and "experienced" part of the gameworld - because of the critical rules. And Rolemaster is full of penalties that affect (let's say) movement speed and athletics checks but have rather little effect on knowledge checks, because you don't need your legs to read a book or remember things. In 4e, on the other hand, the physical state of a PC's body rarely becomes salient - it all blends into the melange of hit points, together with blows to the mind (psychic damage).

On the other hand, 4e makes the physical location of characters during tactical encounters more salient than in RM, because of the role of position in the combat rules. (Rolemaster plays very easily without maps or minis, and with positioning and location being handwaved.) So that part of the gameworld is experienced much more in 4e - which for me is a refreshing change from my RM days.

As a GM, I find that the abstract resolution mechanics of skill challenges (comparable in certain respects to the HeroQuest mechanics that The Shaman refers to) make certain parts of the gameworld more salient to me than they otherwise might have - they force me to focus in on points of conflict and potential complication, because the mechanics require me to draw on these as part of the adjudication. I don't know to what extent it is the same, or different, on the player side.

On the "knocking prone" question, I know that in 20 years of GMing Rolemaster the question of whether a snake was on its front or back never came up - there were a few snake encounters over the years, but I only remember one involving hand-to-hand fighting, when a martial artist grappled with a giant serpent in a watery cavern - so the position of the snake was dictated primarily by the results of the martial arts critical tables. On the other hand, 4e apparently makes this aspect of the gameworld salient if only in order to resolve the question "what is happening to the snake, in the fiction, as this mechanical result is actually played out?"

So it doesn't give the same details as more simulationist mechanics might, but it nevertheless brings certain details to the fore.

This makes me think that the problem with the prone snake may not be that it conflicts with the experience of the gameworld, or subordinates the fictional details to mere mechanics, but that it produces that experience in the wrong way (for some) - that it makes them self-consciously create the experience, rather than having it determined by the uncontroversial interpretation of some already-established mechanical state of the relevant game elements.

As a GM I don't feel the gameworld less viscerally when I'm aware that I'm (helping with) creating it. But the GM is in a distinctive place in that respect, as it is a creative role. Is it very different from the player side?
 

It's also why I genuinely admire games like FATE and HeroQuest but will probably never play them. I think the mechanics of both systems are intriguing, but the prospect of actually running a game with either one holds little appeal for me. Horses for courses, again.

There is cartainly heavy abstraction in FATE and Heroquest, but there's lots to enjoy in there.

A simple Heroquest example. A player has decided their character is Brave: 17 and Respects his Elders: 17. Whenever the character does something brave, they can use their brave stat to augment any other skill they're using at the time. If they were doing something both brave and respectful of their elders they could use both.

So the mechanics do represent the game world, it's just the focus is on something different (motivations, personality, relationships) rather than the arc of swords or arrows or bullets.

Agreed, though, that it's horses for courses.
 

Indeed, and since combat powers are used in combat, where the snake (if it's an enemy) would presumably not just be crawling along the ground but positioning itself to attack, there shouldn't be an issue. Context.

Are you making that up, or is that an actual rule in 4e? I was under the impression that combat powers could be used in more circumstances than simply combat alone. Of course, I was also under the impression, from my own experience with snakes, that they are not always positioned to attack when an "encounter" begins. Or when an "encounter" ends -- snakes are sometimes just trying to get away.

In any event, my statement was intended to be broader than answering conceptually for a single edition of a single game. "Can a snake be knocked prone?" is the context question. And I was qualifying my answer (rather than simply agreeing) because I expected follow-up, pretty much of the type that occurred.

The snake wouldn't have "reach" to begin with, when not prone.

Again, my statement was intended to be broader than answering conceptually for a single edition of a single game. At this point I am not just looking at how the idea can be modelled, but how it can be modelled well. This is the general forum, rather than the 4e forum, after all! One shouldn't imagine that every response is based on a narrow subset of rules.

So a -2 penalty to hit can certainly be reflective of a reduced range of attack; sometime you're going to be just a bit too far for it to reach.

Sure, if you like. But this is a specific method of modelling that is, IMHO, inferior to several others available. YMMV, though.


RC
 
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