Something I'm not quite understanding about the will save...

[Tsyr]

Ok, according to the "most accepted" meaning of the stats, Charisma is as much personality and force thereof, knowledge of self (The SRD says that any being that can distinquish "self" from "non self" has at least a charisma 1), etc, as well as physical attractiveness.

So why then is WISDOM the modifer for the Will save? Wouldn't CHA make more sense?

I dunno, this is just something I was thinking about a few minutes ago while I was rolling up a character...

 

[Thanee]

Yep, I also think Charisma would make more sense.

Wisdom is for intuition and perceptiveness, Charisma for force of personality and willpower.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Christian]

I tend to pair up the mental and physical stats-it helps me keep them straight. Charisma is 'mental Strength', Wisdom is 'mental Constitution', and Intelligence is 'mental Dexterity'. (That last one is a bit suspect, but anyway ...) It's easy to see by comparison how Charisma is what lets you apply the effects of your sense of self to others, while Wisdom lets you resist the effects of others' attempts to do so to you.

 

[Tsyr]

I tend to pair up the mental and physical stats-it helps me keep them straight. Charisma is 'mental Strength', Wisdom is 'mental Constitution', and Intelligence is 'mental Dexterity'. (That last one is a bit suspect, but anyway ...) It's easy to see by comparison how Charisma is what lets you apply the effects of your sense of self to others, while Wisdom lets you resist the effects of others' attempts to do so to you.

Except that, if I were to do what you do, I would actualy say that Wisdom and Charisma are Strength and Con, in that order. "strength" of personality can also be looked at as "how resistant to change is your personality". IE, I would expect someone who was really sure of themselves to be pretty hard to convince of things they didn't already believe.

Yes yes, I know shrinks sometimes say the exact opposite is true, but we are talking about a rather simplistic view of things here... I mean, this is the same stat system that treats your aim with a bow and your ability to tightrope walk are the same stat.

I miss split-stats from 2E...

 

[Jalkain]

Except that, if I were to do what you do, I would actualy say that Wisdom and Charisma are Strength and Con, in that order. "strength" of personality can also be looked at as "how resistant to change is your personality". IE, I would expect someone who was really sure of themselves to be pretty hard to convince of things they didn't already believe.

In that case you're basically saying that Charisma is the mental equivalent of both Strength and Constitution. Which leaves Wisdom nowhere according to that model.


Yes yes, I know shrinks sometimes say the exact opposite is true, but we are talking about a rather simplistic view of things here... I mean, this is the same stat system that treats your aim with a bow and your ability to tightrope walk are the same stat.

And in view of this, we should go for the choice that provides better game balance. I think your idea might unbalance the relative usefulness of the two stats, unless compensations are made.

I miss split-stats from 2E...

Hey, it's not too late to go back!

 

[Xarlen]

The way it's been said, that Charisma is your influence and power outward, while Wisdom is Inward.

The reason why the Monk gets bonuses from Wisdom, he focuses on the Inside, while the Bard focuses Outward, toward people.

Also, Clerics are 'supposed' to have the biggested 'Will power', thus their main attribute is Wisdom, and thus that also adds to Will save.

And, the reason Charisma effects nothing is because it's a Dumpstat.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I miss split-stats from 2E...

Those were so broken... I've only seen one NPC choose Stamina over Muscle, and that's because 2e kreen couldn't apply their Strength bonus to natural attacks.

Hey, it's not too late to go back!

Yes it is Seriously, finding 2e DMs is hard. For me, it's no problem - I'll never go back to 2e - but some of my gaming friends miss it. (Oddly, they're the ones who aren't any good at DMing. That wasn't supposed to be a slam, it's just a weird coincidence.)

And, the reason Charisma effects nothing is because it's a Dumpstat.

Agreed. Sad, isn't it? I think d20 Modern makes Charisma useful to more characters - lots of people will want a level of Charismatic.

 

[JChung2003]

Once you realize D&D's a game designed to be playable and not an accurate model of life, things make a lot more sense.

 

[dvvega]

If you're having a hard time equating Wisdom to Will saves ...

look at it this way (mildly sarcastic)...

EX 1.
There is an illusion of a dragon attacking you ...

Which would help you more?

The Wisdom to know that dragons don't usually come with pink spots

OR

The force of personality to say "I can take this on"

EX 2.
Hey you're not really my friend ... you hurt my buddy (Will save vs Charm Person).

OR

I'm so good looking/strong in personality that I don't need you as a friend (same save).



Wisdom is the ability to discern fact from fiction ... the wise thing to do.

Charisma is your force of personality and how you apply it to others. Yes it is your Force of Will, but not internally but externally portrayed.

EX 3.
Low Wis Grunt
Gee! What a guy! I'll do anything for him!

High Wis Grunt
Gee! What a guy! I'd like to learn from him, however he wants me to throw myself at that Ogre! Why isn't HE doing it?

I think that's enough from me

 

[Spatzimaus]

A while back (about a year ago, I think) we had a big mathematical discussion on the board about how saves in general were broken. The consensus by the end was that saves overall were fine, except where someone was of a class that could easily max out one save (Rogues for Reflex, Clerics or Druids for Will) by pumping up one stat. With those classes it was too easy to become effectively immune to one entire type of save.

We came up with a solution: make each save depend on two stats.

Fortitude save is (STR bonus + CON bonus)/2, rounded up. Your ability to resist effects like paralysis, exhaustion, and poison has just as much to do with muscle (STR) as it does the ability to take damage (CON).
Reflex save is (DEX bonus + INT bonus)/2, rounded up. Fast reactions (DEX) allow you to dodge the blast before it reaches you; but the ability to process information (INT) allows you to figure out quickly where the blast is going to be aimed (and therefore which direction gives the best chance of escape).
Will save is (WIS bonus + CHA bonus)/2, rounded up. When dealing with mind-affecting spells, your sense of self (CHA) is just as important as your ability to realize that something is wrong (WIS).

End result: for those classes that need multiple stats, your saves don't change much. Wizards gain a little Reflex save, Sorcerers gain a little Will save (which helps differentiate the two). Clerics, Rogues, and Druids lose a bit. Oh, and CHA stops being such a dump stat; it and WIS are still relatively weaker than the other stats, but no one can entirely dump one.

Also, items/Feats that increase one save directly become a little stronger, while those that increase CON, WIS, or DEX become a little weaker.

Ironically, by making STR an even stronger stat, the Half-Orcs don't suck as badly. Well, that and I let them take Limited Scent as a Feat (it's Scent but at 1/3 the range and +5 to DCs)