Something that 4e's designers overlooked? -aka is KM correct?

[Scribble]

I think time in D&D is kind of like encumbrance and light sources...

For some, tracking it is too much work for the payoff, so it gets kind of overlooked and stretched.

For others, the payoff is greater then the work, so it's tracked in more detailed fashion.

For yet others, it's somewhere in between.

 

[LostSoul]

One of the things I don't like too much about 4E is the lack of a strategic level of gameplay. I have decided to hack it and add that level back in as best I can.

I decided to go with time as the main limited resource.

When prepping a campaign, the DM draws a map and rolls to see what is in each hex. Sometimes a Lair will pop up. The level of the geographic area + a random roll of a "level modifier" table determine the level of the lair - keeping it within a range.

When filling out the Lair you turn to the Lair rules, see what an X level Y creature Lair is composed of. So you have your Lair filled with monsters - their resources that they can draw on.

What I'm working on now are the "Settlement" rules. Originally I built them because I enjoyed buliding a Domain in Houses of the Blooded and I thought, "Hey, I never got a chance to play a name-level character in D&D, let's try and get some of that now." PCs would take control of a settlement and drive its growth, its growth tying back into boons for the PCs at the adventuring level, the PC's adventures giving them gold to spend on the settlement, XP to teach the NPCs, and pushing back against threats that the settlement faces.

A nice little cycle.

Then I thought, "In order to make this awesome I should give the monster Lairs the same options." I already know what resources the monsters have; all I have to do as a DM is give them actions like the NPCs in a settlement take. Different monsters have different actions - dwarves can Dig well, goblins and kobolds can build Breeding Pits, etc.

The monsters are bound by the same limited resources that human settlements are - they need to feed their armies, they need ore to craft arms & armour (and a forge to build them), a temple to work their rituals (and priests who can turn spice into Sanctified Incense), etc.

After playing around with it it seems to be working well. It defines the reach of the Lair, gives them things to do (such as trying to use the Diplomacy action with another monster Lair to recruit a Siege Engineer). I am sure that I'll have to make changes to things once the rubber hits the road, but that's what happens when you design.

 

[pemerton]

This is something I'm doing with my 4E hack.

I actually had some of your posts about this in mind when I wrote what I did!

EDIT: I just read your longer post. Interesting. With the random determination of lairs, and the mechanical constraints on the activities of monsters in the lairs, how much room remains for GM discretion in designing the campaign? Is there any danger of random determination producing a somewhat lacklustre setting, or do the Lair rules guarantee that each lair is inherently interesting on its own terms, regardless of who is around for it to interact with?

 

[Hussar]

RC - comparing time to GP isn't exactly fair though. The rules are pretty specific about what you can buy and what a GP will do for you. Very little of that is dependent on any soft factors. Buy a better weapon, you hit more often. If you have a campaign that features lots of combat, that's a good investment.

However, time factors are entirely campaign dependent. So, unless you're telling the players, "You have X amount of time to foil Baron McEvilton", how can they know how much time they have?

Now, your idea of henchmen has some serious legs, and I'll get back to that in a second.

KM - The quest idea kind of works, but, you'd have to be pretty explicit about the time limits. If you do Quest A that won't leave enough time for Quest B means that the players know how long Quest A will take and how long before Quest B expires. Otherwise, they're just shooting in the dark.

Now, back to the idea of henchmen.

The 3e PHB2 had the idea of Affiliations which I think is fantastic. The player has a fairly meta-game level command of a large organization which can impact the ongoing campaign. The player can take actions with the organization - wage war, economic embargo's, espionage, that sort of thing - and those actions take time to resolve. About a month at a time IIRC.

I think this is how time can be made into a resource in the game. Instead of all actions taking a month, have a variety of actions that can take various amounts of time. If the player needs information about Baron McEvilton, his affiliation can provide the legwork, after a certain amount of time, which means that the affiliation cannot do other things in the meantime.

Silo off the affiliation from the micro-level campaign and keep it purely macro level except for some very specific cross-overs and you can have a two tier campaign going on.

 

[Raven Crowking]

RC - comparing time to GP isn't exactly fair though. The rules are pretty specific about what you can buy and what a GP will do for you. Very little of that is dependent on any soft factors. Buy a better weapon, you hit more often. If you have a campaign that features lots of combat, that's a good investment.

However, time factors are entirely campaign dependent.

Well, I'm not sure what edition you are playing now, but every edition I have ever played has hard time factors -- how long it takes to travel from X to Y, how long it takes to search an area, how often random encounters occur (in some editions), how long a combat round lasts, how long it takes to regain hit points through rest, when spells can be regained, how long it takes to craft an item or research a spell, etc.

It seems to me to be trivially easy to make these things important. In fact, my players chafe at the idea of their characters having downtime when they could be out doing something. YMMV.

So, unless you're telling the players, "You have X amount of time to foil Baron McEvilton", how can they know how much time they have?

They know what Baron McEvilton is doing.

If Baron McEvilton kills 10 people a day, it doesn't take a genius to realize that 100 people will die if you wait 10 days. If Baron McEvilton has posted bans for his upcomming wedding, in 3 months, which will greatly enhance his political power, then the players know they have three months to do something about it, or they will have to deal with a more powerful Baron McEvilton.

Now, your idea of henchmen has some serious legs, and I'll get back to that in a second.

Your points about henchmen and organizations are all valid, but they are not new to 4e. People have been doing the same since I began gaming!


RC

 

[Garthanos]

Your points about henchmen and organizations are all valid, but they are not new to 4e. People have been doing the same since I began gaming!

My players pcs are frequently significant members of organizations and not after becoming some magic level X dictated by game mechanics that really dont know my game world ;-) ... becoming renowned through adventuring can actually impede your profile in some organizations. Use real politics and life stays interesting... if you like politics.

 

[Hussar]

Well, I'm not sure what edition you are playing now, but every edition I have ever played has hard time factors -- how long it takes to travel from X to Y, how long it takes to search an area, how often random encounters occur (in some editions), how long a combat round lasts, how long it takes to regain hit points through rest, when spells can be regained, how long it takes to craft an item or research a spell, etc.

It seems to me to be trivially easy to make these things important. In fact, my players chafe at the idea of their characters having downtime when they could be out doing something. YMMV.

Now ain't that the troof. I once told the players that they would be spending the winter pretty much snowed in in the small mountain village they were staying in. No biggie, I was going to narrate it in about thirty seconds, then get on with the game.

They darn near revolted. "Wait three whole months????!?!?! OMG!!?!?" It totally blew my mind.

They know what Baron McEvilton is doing.

If Baron McEvilton kills 10 people a day, it doesn't take a genius to realize that 100 people will die if you wait 10 days. If Baron McEvilton has posted bans for his upcomming wedding, in 3 months, which will greatly enhance his political power, then the players know they have three months to do something about it, or they will have to deal with a more powerful Baron McEvilton.

That's the problem with hypotheticals. Sure, you've got Baron McEvilton. How do they know these things unless you, the DM, TELL them. In other words, it's not a player resource to be used. It's a DM stick to force them into following adventures.

Do this, or it will be worse later. Do this or very bad things will happen.

How is this not extremely heavy handed rail roading?

Your points about henchmen and organizations are all valid, but they are not new to 4e. People have been doing the same since I began gaming!


RC

Never said it was actually. I think I brought the mechanics point up from 3e which actually had some codified rules for it. If those existed previously, fine, let's hear them. I know Basic/Expert had something for it's Companion (or was it Masters?) set, but, I don't know those rules at all.

AFAIK, the only rules in 1e were, "you build your castle, followers come". That and a handful of tables about henchment that admittedly, we never used because it was just another way the DM was going to shaft us by having the henchmen rob us in our sleep.

Me, I lean a LOT more towards having mechanics over letting the DM wing it. I've just had way too many bad wings.

 

[Mark]

Well, I'm not sure what edition you are playing now, but every edition I have ever played has hard time factors -- how long it takes to travel from X to Y, how long it takes to search an area, how often random encounters occur (in some editions), how long a combat round lasts, how long it takes to regain hit points through rest, when spells can be regained, how long it takes to craft an item or research a spell, etc.

It seems to me to be trivially easy to make these things important. In fact, my players chafe at the idea of their characters having downtime when they could be out doing something. YMMV.

Although some are, there are also plenty of instances where GP costs are not written in stone and negotiating is the rule of the day.

 

[Kingreaper]

That's the problem with hypotheticals. Sure, you've got Baron McEvilton. How do they know these things unless you, the DM, TELL them. In other words, it's not a player resource to be used. It's a DM stick to force them into following adventures.

Do this, or it will be worse later. Do this or very bad things will happen.

How is this not extremely heavy handed rail roading?

If the players have any goals, time is something they need to achieve them.


If the players don't have any goals, complaining about the DM introducing goals is stupidity.


Either the players have time-limited goals for their characters, or the DM introduces time-limited goals. No matter what, goals will exist, that are time-limited.


And how is it railroading to say "there's a dragon in the north ruling the nation of Arkosia, and slowly replacing his human subjects with dragonborn and kobolds?"

 

[Fifth Element]

In fact, my players chafe at the idea of their characters having downtime when they could be out doing something. YMMV.

Sounds like your players would like 4E!