Song of Ice and Fire Question...

[Alaric_Prympax]

The dwarf though I have been told does enough bad things to balance his good and thus you never truly like him. As for the girl, she was not that important in the parts that I read so I cannot comment.

Well IMO you were misinformed concerning those two characters. I would recommend reading on so that you can form you own opinion on them, but since you've made it clear you do not like this story hopefully you'll find something you'll enjoy reading in the future as I'm sure you already have.

 

[Pants]

Yes Jon is a hero. One of out dozens of characters. The dwarf though I have been told does enough bad things to balance his good and thus you never truly like him. As for the girl, she was not that important in the parts that I read so I cannot comment.

Two and a half characters out of dozens though is not much of a trade.

I cannot honsetly remember any truly 'bad' things that Tyrion does in the serious. Anyone care to tell me what they are?

I would count Bran as a hero as well, along with Eddard (

Spoiler

Even if he didn't last long, but that's part of the point of the story, honor will only get you sh*t in this land

). Dany and Jon also qualify. While Tyrion may not fit the description of 'hero,' I found his perseverence very compelling, especially when he takes up the role of the Hand in A Clash of Kings.

The hound, I agree, seems like a jerk in the beginning, but underneath his hateful exterior, there is... something. The way he treats Sansa and Arya later on made me empathize with him more. I actually felt bad when

Spoiler

Arya left him alone to die in the wilderness. He probably deserved it, but still...

Jaime, I don't think that he will ever live down those two defining moments in his life, namely killing Aerys and throwing Bran out the window. He may redeem himself of the first, but the latter he can never do, because of how cruel and selfish the act was.

 

[Storminator]

<SNIP>

I honestly don't care what happens to any of the characters, because the whole story has come to feel very contrived and arbitrary - When I enjoy a story, I can suspend my disbelief and feel that I am finding out what happens to people. But when one too many "I'm so edgy and non traditional" plot twists happens, I become very aware of the writer as just that. Some guy at his keyboard, whose work has ceased to interest me. What will happen to Arya? Nothing. Arya doesn't actually exist, she's a fictional construct whose personality or abilities may change on a dime if the writer feels like it. What will happen to Sanya? Who cares, poor writing has turned her into the most passive first person character ever to waste page space. How will the war end? Stupidly, with a suspension of disbelief breakingly effective betrayal, what a cop out...

<SNIP>

Kahuna burger

That's interesting, as I've had the opposite reaction to the exact same text.

I keep thinking "wow, Martin didn't come up with some lame plot twist to get his characters out of trouble." The fact that the protagonists foes can actually defeat them, despite the fact that they are the protagonists, reinforces my suspension of disbelief.

I don't see anything in the tale as arbitrary, but rather the logical consequence of previous actions, even if the "good guys" take it in the teeth. For example, I thought the Red Wedding made perfect sense.

PS

 

[TiQuinn]

To reply more directly to your comment this thought does come to mind. Martin disdanes normal writing conventions. His books are full of plot twists and there are few real heroes or villians.

I have not read more than the first half of the first book but I can make one prediction and feel confident. Do not read the series expecting things to be wrapped up nicely ever. Do not expect horrible villians to all get their just desserts. Do not expect heroes to win out against evil.

Those would be too obvious for Martin to use. If you read it building a list of people you hate and reading so that you can see them punished I seriously will expect you to be disapointed. Too many of them will get away with it or never truly pay. Martin wouldnt want to be too typical genre now would he.

Personally, I think it's what elevates Martin's books over the typical dime a dozen fantasy.

 

[jdavis]

My comment was not aimed at you. I was replying to someone who thought the Hound was "cool".

Well you haven't read 5/6th of the story (of which he is a major part of) either. I got nothing against you or Kahuna's thoughts on the books, it's fine not to like them, but maybe you should start your own thread to discuss the weaknesses in the story intead of trolling for a fight by insulting people who like the books here. Gee if there was a thread on the storyline of ET and I just popped in to say "I hate that stinking movie, I didn't even finish watching it" wouldn't that be considered a little rude? I mean you have only read 1/6th of the written work and you are here telling people who have read the whole 3 books they are wrong about anything? I'm sure a thread on the weakpoints of this series would get a lot of hits and would generate lots of responses and that's where your post should be, this was a thread talking about certain characters futures later in the series (which you haven't read).

Yes I'm a little touchy here I get tired of the irrelevant, "oh that series sucks" post not to mention the vieled insults to people who actually enjoy the books.

 

[Mercule]

I personally can't understand how a reader doesn't sympathize with (or at least become emotionally invested in) Jon Snow, Danaerys, or Tyrion. If there is a true hero in those books, it's Jon Snow, he's easy to like in my opinion. Seeing Tyrion constantly struggle to find happiness, only to be constantly disappointed makes for a good story as well. And Danaerys is fascinating if only because her chapters give details of cultures that are far different from the pretty standard medieval isle of Westeros...the fact that a teenage girl ends up being a badass conqueror who still tries to rule justly is also pretty good, I think.

I'll agree with you whole-heartedly on Jon and Tyrion. Jon is easily my favorite character in the books and I think an entire novel or three that featured just him would suck me in.

Dany, on the other hand, bores me to tears. Her "journey" thus far has taken her from pathetic to uninteresting. Her actual plot line could be condensed by half at no loss. The cultures she interacts with are interesting to a point, but seem to jar against the rest of the tale. If she were given her own novel or three, I think it could be justifiably compared to some of the "filler" books in the Wheel of Time series. The only reason I don't skip over her chapters entirely is because I'm sure she will have some significant role to play later -- of course, I'd probably care about her more if she wasn't introduced until then.

I'm terribly afraid that the whole thing will wrap with Dany showing up and successfully reclaiming her crown, possibly to be wed to Jon Snow. I'm truly hoping that things do not turn out that way. If she were a real person, I think I'd probably like and respect her, because she seems to want to do the right thing and be a decent person. As a narritive entity, I have more desire to see Cersei Lannister or that mummified satyr Frey come out on top. My only hope is that, despite all the chapters in the first book devoted to Ned, he is, apparently, not that important of a character after all.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Yes I'm a little touchy here I get tired of the irrelevant, "oh that series sucks" post not to mention the vieled insults to people who actually enjoy the books.

well, frankly, I've taken enough not-so-veiled slams for not liking the books, the annoyance tends to creep out, I suppose. When you've gotten burned on a time and mental investment, you tend to want to present the opposing veiwpoint to the folks that are telling others "Its great, keep reading it." I wish someone had told me what kind of writer Martin really was before I read the books, so yeah, I'll let people know that he's not the writer for everyone when the subject comes up.

(btw, the last time I complained about some nasty slamming not even on topic for this forum, I was roundly ridiculed. I suggest if you want to protect the topics you care about that you push for community standards, not try to silence people only when you like the topic being dissed.)

Kahuna burger

 

[theburningman]

Dang, man, I've always thought that Tyrion was one of the best conceived, sympathetic and believable characters in literature. He's no goody-two-shoes, sure, but when the sht comes down, he's always managed to remain on the side of the angels (is that enough cliches for one sentence?). I hope that I could someday even come close to creating his like.

 

[takyris]

Well, KB, allow me to be perfectly in character, as based on our last demi-argument in this forum: You go.

I personally love the series, but it is what it is. The quickest way to ruin a series for me is to have somebody get my back up by telling me that it's writing on a whole new level, exploring new philosophies, and that if I don't like it, it's only because my brain can't handle anything more complex than popcorn with the training wheels still on. (Uh, yes, I am annoyed at Matrix people, why do you ask? And that's just based on my opinions of the first movie, since I voted with my dollars against the other two.)

I wouldn't consider this thread a "Please, only say nice things about Martin" zone. KB's comments are free and justifiable and excellent for purposes of the topic, in my opinion.

As I said: I love this series. I love the fact that he's forcing everyone to grow or die, that he's making people into ambiguous forces over time -- Jaime gets much more sympathetic, as does the Hound, while Catelyn has some hard-hearted aspects to her that put her in the less-than-perfect arena. That said, if every series were like this one, I think I'd be exhausted, and not in a good way. It reads as though he's taking the conventions of fantasy and trying to apply an adult-level realism to it -- which means that good people sometimes die, bad people sometimes get to snicker, but eventually, goodness appears to be a good thing and evilness appears to come back and bite you in the butt.

Some people really like this. Some people really don't. They're both justified. This is why it's called literature and not mathematics. I would argue that it's competently written, and that he's doing a good job of (over the course of the first three books) making his characters three-dimensional, and I would state factually that I like it. But really, that's about all I can say. I don't know that it's doing new things with the mythology of fantasy. I see him trying to put a human face on a lot of stereotypes of fantasy -- the spoiled princess, the tomboy, the unathletic little kid, the unloved bastard kid, and so forth. But I can also see people saying, "Okay, and why is that good?"

There's a really obnoxious thread in the SFFNET Tangent forum right now wherein a bunch of literary critics who are much better at being literary critics than they are at writing are bombasting the idea that fiction can only be "great" if it is challenging -- if it attacks the status quo. Frankly, I think that that's garbage, and that saying that challenging stuff is great and unchallenging stuff is, therefore, not-great, is idiotic. Some people read to have their minds challenged. This is a legitimate and good reason to read, but it doesn't make you a better person than the guy who grabs something to escape from his currently unhappy, unfair, unGOOD life into a world where morality is simpler and has much more direct and satisfying paybacks for all involved.

So, KB -- fire away. You'll have to deal with people telling you that you only feel that way because you haven't read the other two books, but that argument didn't convince me to keep reading Jordan, and it shouldn't convince you to keep reading Martin unless you've got a lot of free time over the next few weeks. I personally think that if you didn't like the first book, you're not going to like the next ones any better. There's the satisfaction of watching some people I dislike get thrown out windows and watching some people finally grow up and gain some power of their own fate, but there are also some wrenchingly unfortunate, unfair, nasty things that happen to people I had started to care about in a graphic kind of cross between Chaucer and the "Virtuous Heroine in Peril" books of the 17th-18th centuries.

 

[jdavis]

well, frankly, I've taken enough not-so-veiled slams for not liking the books, the annoyance tends to creep out, I suppose. When you've gotten burned on a time and mental investment, you tend to want to present the opposing veiwpoint to the folks that are telling others "Its great, keep reading it." I wish someone had told me what kind of writer Martin really was before I read the books, so yeah, I'll let people know that he's not the writer for everyone when the subject comes up.

(btw, the last time I complained about some nasty slamming not even on topic for this forum, I was roundly ridiculed. I suggest if you want to protect the topics you care about that you push for community standards, not try to silence people only when you like the topic being dissed.)

Kahuna burger

You see I don't want to silence the topic it's a very good topic for discussion, in it's own thread. I was actually wanting to post on the topic here but I have gotten pushed way off base and the whole thread is ruined for me because of this stuff. I have absolutely no problem with your position or what you are saying or how you feel on the series. Heck it was only DocMoriartty's first post that bugged me, he has went back to topic discussing characters (although I'll still hit him with the old, but you haven't even read half the series ).

As far as warning somebody off the books, if you got through the first one and liked it then chances are you will keep liking it, but who am I to say yes or no, if you don't like it then stop reading it, that only makes sense, there is only one way to know for sure and that's for somebody to read it themselves and make up their own mind. People have to make up their own minds on whether they like any book or not.

Start a thread, call it "Martin is overated", if you start it they will come. If you want to warn people off then start a thread to warn them off. I was sort of wanting to talk about evil and it's consequences in "A song of Fire in Ice" in this thread since that seems to be the actual topic at hand. Of course you might not get 'slammed' as much for not liking the story if you didn't show up in the middle of a thread where people who love the stories were talking about how much they loved it and announcing that it bugs you that they all like the story so much. I wouldn't go to a Pro Baseball game and start yelling on a microphone about how much I hated baseball and baseball fans, that's sort of asking for it.