D&D 4E Sorcerer and Themes in 4e?

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think I have to disgree with this. I'm currently playing a Dragonborn Dragon Magic Sorcerer (Paragon Path Ninefold Master) specialized in fire (approaching level 14), and I doubt there's any way for a Mage to compete. The character is the most powerful striker _and_ controller in our group by a wide margin.

It's a Dark Sun campaign, so I picked the Templar background (theme) which is awesome, since it adds Leader-like powers to my repertoire.

One of the problems with the Sorc is they just lack a really convincing PP. Back when Daggermaster was an option that was one thing, but these days there's nothing compelling.

 

[pemerton]

One of the problems with the Sorc is they just lack a really convincing PP. Back when Daggermaster was an option that was one thing, but these days there's nothing compelling.

Demonskin Adept is pretty compelling in my view! The sorcerer PC in the game I GM has this path, and it is strong, perhaps broken: 3 attacks, with all the stacking that implies, from Demonsoul Bolts; and +3 to hit for the whole party with an action point. Swords of the Marilith is also a pretty strong daily. (Admittedly the level 12 utiity power is pretty cruddy, but the action point ability makes up for that in an extreme way.)

 

[Jhaelen]

Yep, Demonskin Adept sounds nice!

Well, with Ninefold Master turning your Dragon Breath into an arcane power, it becomes better than any of the normal encounter powers. When you're using an action point you can use Dragon Breath a second time as a free action, resulting in a pretty amazing nova-round (2x Dragon Breath + 2x AE Encounter/Dailys + Zone/Damage Reflection during opponents' turns). Its level 12 utility sucks, though - must be a theme for sorcerer paragon paths ;-)

So, I wasted a feat to replace it with Dragonborn Zeal, which is pretty awesome (it's an immediate interrupt power triggering when your hp are reduced to zero or below, returning you almost back to bloodied with attack and damage bonuses against the enemy that dealt the damage to you).

In case you're interested, here's my list of powers and feats (at level 13):
Feat Utility: Dragonborn Zeal
Sorcerer Attack 1: Burning Spray
Sorcerer Attack 1: Explosive Pyre
Sorcerer Attack 1: Lightning Breath
Sorcerer Attack 1: Acid Orb
Sorcerer Utility 2: Dragonflame Mantle
Sorcerer Attack 3: Flame Spiral
Templar Attack 5: Glare of Oppression
Sorcerer Utility 6: Sudden Scales
Sorcerer Attack 9: Prime the Fire
Templar Utility 10: Berate the Weak
Ninefold Master Attack 11: Dragon Aura
Sorcerer Attack 13: Chains of Fire

Level 1: Draconic Spellcaster
Level 2: Arcane Familiar
Level 4: Armor Proficiency: Leather
Level 6: Superior Implement Training (Incendiary dagger)
Level 11: Sorcerous Vision
Level 11: Draconic Spellfury
Level 12: Dragonborn Frenzy
Level 12: Dragonborn Zeal

As you can see, I like powers that either create a zone or deal damage to enemies attacking me. In either case, plenty of stacking bonuses ensure that the enemies will suffer for daring to get close to me. Another theme is boosting my healing surge value - I like to get bloodied to get a boost, then go back to almost full with a single heal.

 

[pemerton]

The sorcerer in my game is a huge fan of stacking too: feat bonuses, plus dual implement with a Staff of Ruin, plus theme and ED bonuses to lightning and thunder damage, plus Mark of Storms and Walk Among the Fey to get shift=teleport and then Unlucky Teleport to do +1d10 damage.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

My only point guys was that if you add it all up you can do basically all the same things with a Mage, AND you get school bonuses. Genasi Pyromancer Mage can burninate harder than a Genasi Dragon Soul Sorcerer. Of course I'm not one to recommend building your character purely on the basis of doing a few extra points of damage, sorcs are perfectly adequate and fun to play.

 

[MoonSong]

My only point guys was that if you add it all up you can do basically all the same things with a Mage, AND you get school bonuses. Genasi Pyromancer Mage can burninate harder than a Genasi Dragon Soul Sorcerer. Of course I'm not one to recommend building your character purely on the basis of doing a few extra points of damage, sorcs are perfectly adequate and fun to play.

Yes a couple of points more, but yet it is only by virtue of Wizards being always oversupported. But again why bother? Sorcerers are way more flavorful out of the gate and despite lacking lots of splat love, they can be pretty capable and moreover: They are dead simple and damn fun to play. Besides there is more to sorcerers than just burning things, (there are lots of other elements around, Thunder and Lightning, Acid, Cold or be a Fate Bender!!)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes a couple of points more, but yet it is only by virtue of Wizards being always oversupported. But again why bother? Sorcerers are way more flavorful out of the gate and despite lacking lots of splat love, they can be pretty capable and moreover: They are dead simple and damn fun to play. Besides there is more to sorcerers than just burning things, (there are lots of other elements around, Thunder and Lightning, Acid, Cold or be a Fate Bender!!)

Oh, of course, I was only commenting on the 'fire' sort of build really. I'm not sure what the equivalent 'lightning Mage' is or how it stacks up, etc. Obviously sorcs and mages both have a lot of different builds, though I am going to venture a guess that nowadays Mage/Wizard pretty well tops sorc in any primarily 'blaster caster' kind of build. Anyway, I like sorcerers, and they're at worst only marginally inferior specifically in terms of damage output. I think it grows to be somewhat significant at Epic, but honestly if all you care about is optimizing you might as well just stick to 4 or 5 top builds.

 

[pemerton]

My only point guys was that if you add it all up you can do basically all the same things with a Mage, AND you get school bonuses.

I am going to venture a guess that nowadays Mage/Wizard pretty well tops sorc in any primarily 'blaster caster' kind of build.

I don't follow the optimisation boards but am familiar with this idea.

The sorcerer's damage gets a basic boost from adding two stats. Then there are all the feat-driven tweaks that mages/wizards can get too. But what do mages/wizards use to get their damage up in lieu of adding that second stat?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

School bonuses, which can get pretty sweet. Pyromancy Apprentice is an instant +1 and you also ignore fire resistance. Yes, the sorc does get +STR/DEX/ETC +2 at 11th, so probably around 4 points of static damage bonus. Pyromancy Master is pretty sweet too, it doesn't guarantee extra damage, but it usually means another +CON damage when it counts. You have slightly better powers all around too. There are more ways to get added bennies, and you have some really excellent PPs that will no doubt increase damage yields too. Honestly, I don't peruse the charops boards that much either, but its pretty widely recognized that it was always a close call and these days Mage has Sorc beat on just basic general damage and tactical utility. Personally I'd go with the sorcerer, embrace your flaminess (or whatever it is).

 

[Jhaelen]

Yes, the sorc does get +STR/DEX/ETC +2 at 11th, so probably around 4 points of static damage bonus.

Actually, it's more likely to give you +6 to +7 at 11th, but I won't try to argue if the OP board guys have determined that a mage pyro deals more damage. I'm still doubtful, but they tend to be right about such things.