Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 2)

[monboesen]

I have been following this thread for a while as I in general agree that the Sorcerer does not have the right feel.

Many of the ideas presented here are both interesting and balanced, but I must say that i do not think the generalist sorcerer presented here is at all on par with the other core classes.

It is clearly better than the standard sorcerer, and thats, I guess, part of the concept here and I agree that the sorcerer could use a bit more fluff i think the actual power incrrease should be very small. People are rarely complaining that sorcerers are weak, but rather bland.

The power that, in my opinion, is over the top is the spellresistance. It may be allright as written in the first lineage ability, but the increases to finally SR 35 is way to much. That would give an equal level spellcaster less than 50 % chance of getting a spell through. Few monsters have an effective caster level that would give them much better chances than that.

Thats not a small flavourful ability, thats possibly the most powerful class ability i have ever seen presented, easily comparable to the fighters multitude of feats or the rogues sneak attack.

Such a sorcerer would outmagic all other spellcasters in a spellbattle.

With all those small benefits and this very strong ability I would not expect to see many wizards in my games. The drawback of one barred school is not, again in my opinion, a fair price for the extra abilities.

The fey and celestial lines presented seemed to have a more reasonable power level while being flavourful and having the right feel for that lineage.

 

[Stalker0]

This was one of the things that was agreed upon very early on. 90% of the people polled wanted to see a restriction placed on the core sorcerer toward spell lists.

Okay, but a large majority wanted to see more skills, and we pulled back on that, maybe I still have a little room to work

Okay, I see why your going with the themes for the generalist, I don't agree with it personally, but if so many want restricted lists let's give it to them.

Perhaps we could just specialize the bonus spells? For instance, the sorcs normally has access to all spells for picking their spells known, but for one spell per level (the new spell known we're giving them) they can't pick from certain schools or something.

As far as the general abilities, let's take a look at what we are giving the sorc with just the metamagics. A certain number of times per day, whenever they want, the sorc can augment any of their spells with this feat for free. Not only do they get access to more metamagic feats then they would have before, but they can increase the power of them. I can silent or still my most powerful spells, even 9th level spells if I want. And since with high charisma sorcs, they can often do it 4, 5, or even 8 or 9 times per day.

That's preety general and pretty cool already. I say we just allow them access to new metamagic feats every time they would gain a lineage ability... I think that's all they need.

 

[Stalker0]

Also, I recommend moving the thread to a third one. When threads get this long, people get intimidated about reading all the posts and don't want to start. We can get some fresh insight perhaps by starting a new thread.

 

[Stalker0]

Celestial Scion:
Spell selection: access to all spells w/ Good descriptor; no [Evil] or necromancy spells.
Knowledge: Religion is a class skill, Celestial is a bonus language.
Lineage gift: smite evil 1x/day
Lineage ability: Prot. from Evil aura always in effect for the sorcerer only.
Improved: spell smite: the smite effect can be added to any spell for bonus damage vs. evil creatures.
20th level: Prot. from Evil bonuses increase to +4, becomes magic circle.
Domain: Prot. Evil, Aid, Daylight, Holy Smite, Dispel Evil, Planar Ally,
Holy Word, Holy Aura, Gate

etc...

--Ben

Let me comment on this one.

Smite Evil is a preetty weak ability to give to a spellcaster class, they would get very limited use for it. I would like to see something else here.

On the flip side, a permanent prot from evil is very... very powerful. You are doing much more than giving the sorc a +2 to ac and +2 to spells against most enemies (since most enemies in dnd are evil). You give immunity to domination and possession effects, and resistance against a lot of summoned and conjured creatures.

I could definately see this as the 20th level ability, it is very nice for a person of that level.

I also like the concept of spell smiting, but I would change it away from damage (we don't want to assme all sorcs are slinging evocations). Perhaps they gain +2 to caster level against evil creatures. That way it could apply to evocations, illusion, death spells, etc.

Finally, for the spell list, I think we should only delve into the cleric spell list on occasion. I like giving teh sorc aid, and I like concept of planar ally- though technically the ally comes from a diety, so that creates a paradox if the sorc doesn't have a patron diety (we could probably say the sorc chooses one when he gains the lineage). But for most of the spells, I think we should stick with the sorc list.

 

[Khaalis]

I have been following this thread for a while as I in general agree that the Sorcerer does not have the right feel.
The power that, in my opinion, is over the top is the spellresistance. It may be allright as written in the first lineage ability, but the increases to finally SR 35 is way to much. That would give an equal level spellcaster less than 50 % chance of getting a spell through. Few monsters have an effective caster level that would give them much better chances than that.

First let me say thanks for posting. All input is of value to the discussion.

On the Spell Resistance you are correct. I actually screwed up when writing this. I somehow missed a step in the line I was trying to progress and it ended up more powerful than intended. That line was supposed to end with the classic 50% chance of success for SR, assuming no spell penetration or greater spell penetration. This brings it back into line as a 20th level ability and is balanced with others with SR of the same CR (in fact it is a little below as many have SR 30+.
9th: SR = Sorcerer Level
17th: SR = 5 + Sorcerer Level
20th: SR = 10 + Sorcerer Level (ie: SR 30)

Okay, but a large majority wanted to see more skills, and we pulled back on that, maybe I still have a little room to work

There is always room to work. I am always tweaking and comparing and evaluating.

Okay, I see why your going with the themes for the generalist, I don't agree with it personally, but if so many want restricted lists let's give it to them.
Perhaps we could just specialize the bonus spells? For instance, the sorcs normally has access to all spells for picking their spells known, but for one spell per level (the new spell known we're giving them) they can't pick from certain schools or something.

I will think on it, but it seems rather clunky compared to just having a theme of 1 spell per level. Or do you mean this in addition to the spell theme?

As far as the general abilities, let's take a look at what we are giving the sorc with just the metamagics. A certain number of times per day, whenever they want, the sorc can augment any of their spells with this feat for free. Not only do they get access to more metamagic feats then they would have before, but they can increase the power of them. I can silent or still my most powerful spells, even 9th level spells if I want. And since with high charisma sorcs, they can often do it 4, 5, or even 8 or 9 times per day. That's preety general and pretty cool already. I say we just allow them access to new metamagic feats every time they would gain a lineage ability... I think that's all they need.

First, I am totally lost as to where you get this. This is not how the ability works. It is much more limited than your portrayal. Nothing you wrote here applies to the ability as it is written other than “on the fly” uses per day.
1) They can’t augment Any of their spells. The ability only works on their lineage spells. (10 spells by 20th assuming it’s a +0 level feat, 9 spells if it’s a +1 level feat).
2) They only gain 1 metamagic feat of choice from a selective list of +0 and +1 level metamagic feats.
3) They still can’t use a +1 Level feat on 9th level spells so no, they cant Silent or Still a 9th level spell.

”Choose one metamagic feat of choice from either: Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell (only feats with up to a 1 spell level adjustment may be chosen for this ability). This metamagic feat is a virtual feat that may be used “on-the fly” to effect any lineage spell (and only lineage spells) the sorcerer knows, a number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. This feat is used without prior preparation, increased spell level or extended casting time. The maximum level of spell to which a caster can apply a metamagic feat is equal to the maximum spell level they are capable of casting, minus the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. If the result of this calculation is less than 0, then that metamagic feat cannot be used on any of the sorcerer's spells. A caster can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell, or even the same metamagic effect more than once (if allowed by the feat's description). However, to determine the maximum level of spell that can be so affected, add together the spell level adjustments given for the various feats. The Heighten Spells feat may be used to increase a spell's effective level (for purpose of save DC's and so on) up to the maximum spell level you are capable of casting. The spell is treated as a spell of that level for purposes of save DC and similar effects, but does not require a higher level spell slot.”

As for granting them new metamagic feats, I wanted to avoid just giving them a “Bonus Metamagic Feat” at 9th and 17th because it falls back to the original argument that the sorcerer is too much like the Wizard. I also don’t want to give a new metamagic “On the Fly” at each of these levels because then the sorcerer would have an insane amount of uses per day of these feats, that would be a bit of a waste because they can only be used on the lineage spells.

Also, I recommend moving the thread to a third one. When threads get this long, people get intimidated about reading all the posts and don't want to start. We can get some fresh insight perhaps by starting a new thread.

I will start a new thread with a summary soon. I just dont like doing it because people begin to chime in as First Readers who havent read all of what has been covered to date and we end up backpeddling. But your claim has merit that people stop bothering with long threads.

This thread has been split off to a new thread at: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78851

 

[Stalker0]

Okay, I was reading a bit wrong.

I'd say if they can only do it on the lineage spells, then we should allow them to do it on the 9th level one.

Also, my idea was that they would get additional virtual feats at higher levels.

And as far as differentiating it from the wizard, its a very different abilty.

The wizard gets the bonus metamagic feats, that he prepares on his spells. The sorc gets a feat that he can use for free a certain number of times per day, but can't use them other than that. Those are very different in their application... its as different as saying wizards and sorcs have the same spell lilst, but they cast their spells very differently.

 

[Khaalis]

Okay, I was reading a bit wrong.

I'd say if they can only do it on the lineage spells, then we should allow them to do it on the 9th level one.

Also, my idea was that they would get additional virtual feats at higher levels.

And as far as differentiating it from the wizard, its a very different abilty.

The wizard gets the bonus metamagic feats, that he prepares on his spells. The sorc gets a feat that he can use for free a certain number of times per day, but can't use them other than that. Those are very different in their application... its as different as saying wizards and sorcs have the same spell lilst, but they cast their spells very differently.

The reply has been continued at:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1396780#post1396780