D&D 5E (2024) Sorcerer (Playtest 7)

[UngainlyTitan]

Can we keep arguments about the fighter and the warlord out of the sorcerer thread?

They must have very little to complain about the sorcerer in the sorcerer thread if they are complaining about the Warlord, which is not even a class in current D&D.

 

[Scribe]

I know there is zero chance of this for One D&D as a result of the enormous traction of "tradition," but I wish that WotC would take a step back and critically reexamine what archetypes are mechanically or thematically needed for D&D for much the same reason as you mention here. I don't think that the whole "where you get magic from" is really strong enough of a thematic difference if there is only marginal mechanical difference: e.g., spells known vs. spells prepared. IMHO, there are more robust thematic archetypes that D&D could use for its classes.

I've been thinking of a 'deconstruction' of 5e for the last few years, and yeah I would like to see this.

 

[Remathilis]

I mean, going back to warrior, expert, and mage would technically work.

But for me to be happy with it I'd want the subclasses to come at level 1 and take at least 50% of the power budget, with tons more levels where you gain subclass features.

Edit: I know that 'healer' technically goes as a 4th class in the og dnd, but I don't understand why that can't be a variant of mage.

You can't convince the D&D community that classes should share spell lists and have united subclass progression, you're not convincing them to have three generic lump classes.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

You can't convince the D&D community that classes should share spell lists and have united subclass progression, you're not convincing them to have three generic lump classes.

I wouldn't want three generic lump classes either.

Though I did like the class groups idea. Shame that got axed.

 

[Shardstone]

I've been thinking of a 'deconstruction' of 5e for the last few years, and yeah I would like to see this.

Have to make a whole new game at that point.

Spell slots would turn into a point type system or something based on narrative conditions. All classes would disappear and entirely new concepts would pop up in their wake, some made from old classes, some never before seen.

I routinely do this as a thought experiment. You get things like a Witcher-inspired class, a dialed-in "I have one power/element" magic-user class (with gish potentials), a Batman or Hawkeye-style item user that probably makes use of Blade in the Dark's flashback mechanics, the fighter class gets replaced with FromSoft-style Sekiro or Dark Souls characters who are human but can literally parry gods and jump like 15 feet in the air.

Overall you'd make a way better, far more exciting game that'd feel very fresh, topical, and like an evolution of old school D&D. Shame we'll literally never, ever get to see it under WotC. D&D has become the ouroboros. It's genre is D&D. It must feel like D&D. It must have the things D&D has.

In typical artistic or game evolution, you see the components of the current game reimagined OR polished in the next game. The DNA is there, but typically, designing forward means not worrying so hard over cleaving to the original concept. New ideas can be brought in. Keep in mind that the very idea of the Fantasy genre has radically evolved since the 70s and 80s. Sword and sorcery white dudes killing thinly-veiled non-white cultures (Conan) are long gone. Even our idea of Tolkien is radically different, turning to the Peter Jackson movies. That wizard fights with a sword. Those fighters can summon ghost armies or run up elephants or shrug off dozens of orcs on top of them. Not to mention the rise of anime in the West. Overall, Fantasy is just a lot different.

Contemporary D&D is a terrible for trying to capture anything else in Fantasy. It used to be the game where all Fantasy ideas came and nestled. However, it has failed to keep up with the zeitgeist. My inspirations in the form of Sanderson, Dark Souls, and even Martin's works just cannot be replicated in D&D. It can't even really be aped all that well. It feels bad trying to do D&D outside of D&D without extensive homebrewing or third party support.

And the thing is, it doesn't have to be like this. We can have @Micah's old school FIghter - Wizard - Thief - Cleric play in the same game as my power-fluid Elden Ring game. There are more than enough highly skilled designers of all stripes that WotC can hire to make such a game possible.

So frustrating knowing that D&D is chained like it is, when it could be so much more without really losing anything at all.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

And the thing is, it doesn't have to be like this. We can have @Micah's old school FIghter - Wizard - Thief - Cleric play in the same game as my power-fluid Elden Ring game. There are more than enough highly skilled designers of all stripes that WotC can hire to make such a game possible.

Don't remind me of the original DnDnext promise of 'choose your own complexity'. They could've pulled that off, if they just wanted to...

 

[Weiley31]

They must have very little to complain about the sorcerer in the sorcerer thread if they are complaining about the Warlord, which is not even a class in current D&D.

Seems better, that's for sure.

 

[Neonchameleon]

They must have very little to complain about the sorcerer in the sorcerer thread if they are complaining about the Warlord, which is not even a class in current D&D.

The state of the sorcerer is definitely improved. They were crippled from lack of spells and have basically gone up from two per spell level to 3 with the implication many subclasses will get more. There are four distinct subclasses.

This doesn't make "nothing to complain about" - just that the issues are long-standing and generally well known and mitigated. Off the top of my head (and these have all come up)

• The sorcerer spell list is too short - but half the subclasses add to it.
• I despise Wild Magic - but of it needs to be done the new wild sorcerer is better than the 2014 version. But the battle lines here are 30+ years old
• Draconic should be able to melee with charisma (including 1d6 unarmed damage and cantrip + attack on the same turn at L6)
• Clockwork is thematically meh.
• Divine and Shadow need extra spells - but aren't in this playtest
• Storm needs a rework to stop being suicidal as well as extra spells known and on list - but again isn't in this playtest.

But that is a minor list. The PHB/Xanathar's sorcerer was The Worst Primary Caster. The worst thing about this take is it has The Most Obnoxious Subclass. (Even warlock multiclass shenanigans are generally a very questionable choice before level 11)

 

[Gadget]

While I think this Sorcerer is better than the original 5e version, I think there is still room for improvement. The small number of meta-magics they get for most of their career (for most tables that don't play into high levels) really hurts the identity, even with innate magic. Having subclasses that get their own private thematic spells added to spells known and some that don't seems really awkward and weird (unless they are planning to eliminate sub-class specific spells from those that have them, which would be disappointing).

I'm pleased that they are going with a more general "innate sorcery" feel for the class than the oddly specific wild/choas-magic theme of a couple playtests ago.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

The state of the sorcerer is definitely improved. They were crippled from lack of spells and have basically gone up from two per spell level to 3 with the implication many subclasses will get more. There are four distinct subclasses.

This doesn't make "nothing to complain about" - just that the issues are long-standing and generally well known and mitigated. Off the top of my head (and these have all come up)

• The sorcerer spell list is too short - but half the subclasses add to it.
• I despise Wild Magic - but of it needs to be done the new wild sorcerer is better than the 2014 version. But the battle lines here are 30+ years old
• Draconic should be able to melee with charisma (including 1d6 unarmed damage and cantrip + attack on the same turn at L6)
• Clockwork is thematically meh.
• Divine and Shadow need extra spells - but aren't in this playtest
• Storm needs a rework to stop being suicidal as well as extra spells known and on list - but again isn't in this playtest.

But that is a minor list. The PHB/Xanathar's sorcerer was The Worst Primary Caster. The worst thing about this take is it has The Most Obnoxious Subclass. (Even warlock multiclass shenanigans are generally a very questionable choice before level 11)

Well my remark was somewhat tongue in cheek but it is remarkable that we have some on topic discussion arising from it.

I will admit to being someone that was unimpressed with the 2014 Sorcerer but it certainly seems improved. I also agree that a sorcerer gish is thematic.