D&D 5E (2024) Sorcerer (Playtest 7)

[Chaosmancer]

It's also why I like there to be multiple classes/subclasses with similar themes. I see people complaining that celestial warlock is pointless because 'just play a cleric'.

But if a person dislikes cleric mechanics but loves warlock mechanics, and they want to play a divine themed character, they have that option open to them.

Right, but I think this is a different discussion.

For example, they recently said that allowing At-Will shield reactions was too powerful, and took that away from Wizards. If we then find they give Warlocks an Eldritch invocation that allows for At-Will Shield Reactions... well, what gives? Why is this too powerful for one class, but not too powerful for another?

That sort of disconnect is a very different discussion from whether or not different mechanics appeal to different players.

 

[Neonchameleon]

What do you mean by "warlock updates their spells on level up rather than at runtime anyway"? Sorcerers don't update their spells outside of leveling up either?

The warlock always casts their spells at a fixed level. A seventh level warlock with Invisibility can always affect three targets for example. So organised warlocks always have the effects of their spells prepared. It doesn't matter how complex the modifiers, warlocks only ever need one variant to hand.

By contrast the sorcerer takes the spell, then applies the tweaked level if they decided to upcast, then applies the effects of any metamagic. These calculations are ones the sorcerer has to do on the fly rather than between sessions.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Right, but I think this is a different discussion.

For example, they recently said that allowing At-Will shield reactions was too powerful, and took that away from Wizards. If we then find they give Warlocks an Eldritch invocation that allows for At-Will Shield Reactions... well, what gives? Why is this too powerful for one class, but not too powerful for another?

That depends in the exact issues. If they allow the warlock to cast the Shield spell (or Absorb Elements) At Will then that is a Problem. If on the other hand they have an Invocation that allows an At Will Hellish Rebuke then it's still overlapping significantly with what wizards are now banned from (At Will Reactions) but whether it's overpowered depends on DPR calculations rather than it being basically a flat +5 AC or a flat resist all energy types. The devil (or the Pact) is in the details.

 

[Chaosmancer]

When the only known problem is a single spell from Tasha's here? That's massive overkill. Spotting that sort of issue is, of course, why you playtest.

I don't particularly care to turn this discussion sorcerers into a discussion on bladelock Warlocks. But if your theory is correct and the problem is that one spell... why was it never a problem until now?

For example, here is a post on Spirit Shroud, for the Warlock, from this year "[2/4 stars] Spirit ShroudOptional): An interesting choice for the Hexblade. The extra damage works well if you’re using Thirsting Blade, and it’s even better if you’re using Crossbow Expert, too. This competes for space with Hex, which will do similar damage until you can upcast Spirit Shroud at 5th level, and by that point you’ll Shadow of Moil more appealing for similar use cases."

It seems rather odd that a spell which is, in your opinion, clearly massively overpowered and the sole issue, was seen as little more than a curiosity by optimizers as late as this very year.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The warlock always casts their spells at a fixed level. A seventh level warlock with Invisibility can always affect three targets for example. So organised warlocks always have the effects of their spells prepared. It doesn't matter how complex the modifiers, warlocks only ever need one variant to hand.

By contrast the sorcerer takes the spell, then applies the tweaked level if they decided to upcast, then applies the effects of any metamagic. These calculations are ones the sorcerer has to do on the fly rather than between sessions.

...

Okay? You are aware that there is no possible way to upcast and change the range of a spell, right? Even spells that increase the AOE radius don't actually increase range. This has nothing at all to do with the ability talked about, because for both classes the range of a spell is a fixed value.

Warlocks are getting the ability to alter that for a single cantrip. But sorcerers HAD the ability to alter it for any spell, and again, the calculations are as simple as writing it next to the metamagic. And, at that point, it is simply simple addition. This is why I don't see the "it was too complicated" argument as being very compelling, the calculation is the same for both. Sorcerers could just apply it more broadly.

And since that was just a "gut guess" as to the reasoning, I don't really see a need to dig in heels over it.

 

[Neonchameleon]

1. Because other classes that only function in melee cant get 3.

So what? The issue is DPR. Or are you going to start a quixotic campaign for the rogue to get extra attack because it can't get two attacks?

2. Because Warlock still has the best catrip.

So what? You do know you can't use Pact of the Blade and Eldritch Blast at the same time? The reason they gave the third attack was because Pact of the Blade was strictly worse than Eldritch Blast and therefore a trap option. Pact of the Blade needs to out-damage Eldritch Blast.

3. Because Warlock still gets rank 9 spells.

And? They don't get the flexibility to match a full caster.

4. All on the best Social stat.

You mean like the sorcerer? And the best casting stat is clearly Wisdom. Which means that the only full caster with a worse casting stat than the warlock is the wizard.

5. At no sacrifice.

A warlock is a hybrid caster which is why some twits thought that they could replace one type of partial casting with another without bothering to work out how any of the class specific synergies worked.

As things are using the 2014 warlock Pact of the Blade is way behind Eldritch Blast and so is a trap option. Buffing bad options to the benchmark doesn't break the class.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That depends in the exact issues. If they allow the warlock to cast the Shield spell (or Absorb Elements) At Will then that is a Problem. If on the other hand they have an Invocation that allows an At Will Hellish Rebuke then it's still overlapping significantly with what wizards are now banned from (At Will Reactions) but whether it's overpowered depends on DPR calculations rather than it being basically a flat +5 AC or a flat resist all energy types. The devil (or the Pact) is in the details.

Sure, but that gets back to the question.

What was wrong with a sorcerer being able to distant spell any spell to increase their range by +30 per level? If we can assume the sorcerer ability is fine, than that distance and applying it to cantrips is fine, but I see no reason it couldn't be applied by sorcerers to their metamagic to make it a viable choice.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don't particularly care to turn this discussion sorcerers into a discussion on bladelock Warlocks. But if your theory is correct and the problem is that one spell... why was it never a problem until now?

Because the warlock didn't have three attacks until now and its power scales with attacks. Also because the pact of the blade was bad without three attacks - and is good with three.

It seems rather odd that a spell which is, in your opinion, clearly massively overpowered and the sole issue, was seen as little more than a curiosity by optimizers as late as this very year.

With three attacks it does literally 50% more DPR than it does with two attacks.

Adding a mediocre amount of damage to a poor baseline isn't a problem. Adding a high amount of damage to a good baseline is a very different situation.

 

[Neonchameleon]

...

Okay? You are aware that there is no possible way to upcast and change the range of a spell, right? Even spells that increase the AOE radius don't actually increase range. This has nothing at all to do with the ability talked about, because for both classes the range of a spell is a fixed value.

I am. But the point is that you're applying the warlock and the sorcerer changes at different times - so the complexity overhead is different. I'm not saying that it needs to be different - but I am saying that there are reasons to make the warlock version slightly fiddlier than the sorcerer one.

Not that I really care about this.

 

[Scribe]

So what? The issue is DPR. Or are you going to start a quixotic campaign for the rogue to get extra attack because it can't get two attacks?

No, but if it had little else going for it? Maybe?

So what? You do know you can't use Pact of the Blade and Eldritch Blast at the same time? The reason they gave the third attack was because Pact of the Blade was strictly worse than Eldritch Blast and therefore a trap option. Pact of the Blade needs to out-damage Eldritch Blast.

And? They don't get the flexibility to match a full caster.

They still have EB, and the reason EB is so powerful, is exactly because they dont get full slots. They also refresh on Short Rest, so...yeah. Just add on 3 Melee attacks as well...

You mean like the sorcerer? And the best casting stat is clearly Wisdom. Which means that the only full caster with a worse casting stat than the warlock is the wizard.

Yes, and the Bard, which at least leans into the Social side thematically and traditionally. Warlock just gets it all as a perk of that being their cast err...melee stat? Right, so damn good looking I am a master swordsman...