D&D 5E (2024) Sorcerer (Playtest 7)

[Scribe]

What do you mean by it being in a 'different rule set'?

Well, I think its egregious that the class that was 'balanced' before, has been buffed to have 3 Melee attacks. This minor tangent however is based on the fact other changes were made into how calculations are applied, yet a different one was applied to the Warlock. Its a few posts back.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Well, I think its egregious that the class that was 'balanced' before, has been buffed to have 3 Melee attacks.

And I think it laughable to claim that Pact of the Blade was balanced before rather than a joke option that was picked for flavour while the bladelocks especially from level 11 were forced into Eldritch Blast spam. Meanwhile the only actual problem people have found with there being three attacks is because one spell in Tasha's that was designed to make the old Blade at least partly playable is OTT with an otherwise better balanced blade.

This minor tangent however is based on the fact other changes were made into how calculations are applied, yet a different one was applied to the Warlock. Its a few posts back.

And so what? Why must everything be cookie cutter and work the same way?

 

[Scribe]

And so what? Why must everything be cookie cutter and work the same way?

Because that's how basic frameworks exist. Systems of rules and design.

It doesn't have to that way, but Warlocks are clearly overtuned, and this may be a clue or reason as to why.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Because that's how basic frameworks exist. Systems of rules and design.

And the basic framework is 100% followed by the warlock. That basic framework is hit points, level, proficiencies, and saving throws and a warlock does this precisely like all other classes. What you are complaining about is that the Warlock doesn't follow the class specific framework of other classes. Which is a good thing. The tedious similarity between the wizard and the sorcerer is an actively bad thing for both classes and in a world where good design was considered important would lead to a wizard becoming a sorcerer subclass.

It doesn't have to that way, but Warlocks are clearly overtuned, and this may be a clue or reason as to why.

And yet warlocks don't normally come up on top of the power surveys. Quite the reverse - they are near the bottom of the full caster surveys. And even the DPR comparison Treantmonk produced only showed that one single third level spell was overtuned when cast at fifth level. Yet because one single spell in Tasha's is overtuned to make up for the fact that the old Pact of the Blade was severely undertuned you want to use this as an excuse to flush the entire class.

 

[Remathilis]

And yet warlocks don't normally come up on top of the power surveys. Quite the reverse - they are near the bottom of the full caster surveys. And even the DPR comparison Treantmonk produced only showed that one single third level spell was overtuned when cast at fifth level. Yet because one single spell in Tasha's is overtuned to make up for the fact that the old Pact of the Blade was severely undertuned you want to use this as an excuse to flush the entire class.

Let's just ban everything prior to 2024 to make sure there are no problems with the new material. That should fix all the problems and allow WotC to put out new versions that will be compatible with the new edit... oh, I almost said it, didn't I?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Let's just ban everything prior to 2024 to make sure there are no problems with the new material. That should fix all the problems and allow WotC to put out new versions that will be compatible with the new edit... oh, I almost said it, didn't I?

When the only known problem is a single spell from Tasha's here? That's massive overkill. Spotting that sort of issue is, of course, why you playtest.

 

[Scribe]

What you are complaining about is that the Warlock doesn't follow the class specific framework of other classes. Which is a good thing. The tedious similarity between the wizard and the sorcerer is an actively bad thing for both classes and in a world where good design was considered important would lead to a wizard becoming a sorcerer subclass.

No, that isnt it. If spells function based on an assumed standard of how they are calculated, apply that across the board. Its the whole issue of the patchwork design of 5e over the years. Where its 'oh its per short rest' 'no its proficiency bonus driven' 'no its based on attributes', where there is no actual consistent design.

I do agree, that differences in the class design are good. Warlock is very distinct, and that probably ALSO contributes to the imbalance in the current iteration, but thats not what I'm talking about.

If there is a method of how spells or effects are calculated, be consistent, thats all.

And yet warlocks don't normally come up on top of the power surveys. Quite the reverse - they are near the bottom of the full caster surveys. And even the DPR comparison Treantmonk produced only showed that one single third level spell was overtuned when cast at fifth level. Yet because one single spell in Tasha's is overtuned to make up for the fact that the old Pact of the Blade was severely undertuned you want to use this as an excuse to flush the entire class.

Not in the slightest. I couldnt care less, if they at least address the issue of 3 melee attacks when dedicated melee classes cannot even get that. Its obscene.

 

[Neonchameleon]

No, that isnt it. If spells function based on an assumed standard of how they are calculated, apply that across the board.

Spells should have benchmarks. But this is exception based design with benchmarks. And we're not talking about spells here, but class features.

And the core problem is the decision to try and put class features into spells rather than into classes. Which means that the spells have to not be balanced against each other well.

Its the whole issue of the patchwork design of 5e over the years. Where its 'oh its per short rest' 'no its proficiency bonus driven' 'no its based on attributes', where there is no actual consistent design.

Or rather there's an attempt to get something because "short" rests are long enough to disrupt tables. I don't know who likes the idea that short rests are one hour, but I've never met them.

I do agree, that differences in the class design are good. Warlock is very distinct, and that probably ALSO contributes to the imbalance in the current iteration, but thats not what I'm talking about.

If there is a method of how spells or effects are calculated, be consistent, thats all.

I agree that putting iconic spells deliberately above the curve is an issue.

Not in the slightest. I couldnt care less, if they at least address the issue of 3 melee attacks when dedicated melee classes cannot even get that. Its obscene.

Why is it obscene for the person who sold their soul for physical power to get something flashy that doesn't actually put them ahead on the DPR stakes? I agree that the warlock having the highest DPR is a problem - and the spell that does it should be changed.

What I haven't checked and would be worth doing is where a Str-lock comes in the DPR charts once we take away the broken spell.

 

[Scribe]

Why is it obscene for the person who sold their soul for physical power to get something flashy that doesn't actually put them ahead on the DPR stakes? I agree that the warlock having the highest DPR is a problem - and the spell that does it should be changed.

1. Because other classes that only function in melee cant get 3.
2. Because Warlock still has the best catrip.
3. Because Warlock still gets rank 9 spells.
4. All on the best Social stat.
5. At no sacrifice.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because the warlock updates their spells on level up rather than at runtime anyway. And because Eldritch Spear applies to just one spell rather than needs to be applied on the fly, so it's a lot less of a problem to have a more complex calculation. Or it's entirely possible that one designer didn't talk to another. Or for A/B testing.

What do you mean by "warlock updates their spells on level up rather than at runtime anyway"? Sorcerers don't update their spells outside of leveling up either?

And yes, Eldritch Spear does apply to one spell, but... you just do the calculation and have it next to the metamagic? Something like "Distant spell: spend 1 sorcerery point to increase spell range by 150 ft" isn't terribly difficult.

I could see this being A/B testing or something, but frankly, I don't care about Eldritch spear nearly as much as I want that sorcerer ability back to how it was. It made distant spell actually interesting, instead of something essentially never taken.