Sorcerer Spell Research

[ARandomGod]

Why, specfically?

Because the limiting factor of the sorc is his fewer spells. That's the main disadvantage of playing him. Everything else is pure advantage (well, actually fewer skill points too. But there aren't a lot of wizardly skills anyhow).

My whole point is, I dont want Sorcerers to have to give up more than the other classes for researching spells. Or at least not much more (such as spell swapping). Thats why I thought an XP cost might be good.

Well, since the limiting factor on the sorc was supposed to be his few spells known, giving him this simply removes his downside. As written, they don't give up anything more than other classes for researching spells. In fact, under RAW, the sorc can have just about anything as a spell, the idea seed that a sorc can cast spells not on any spell list is right there in text. The limit is that you can't have many in the first place. True, they have less reason to research a large number of spells, they're stricktly limited on the number they can know. But, if they want every single one of those spells known can be a custom spell.

Anyhow, I don't see a reason you can't give the sorc more spells known, but that's a LOT more known, and the sorc really isn't giving up anything if he's giving up one for 1d4. He's instead automatically breaking even and having a 75% chance of coming out ahead. There needs to be some more set limiting factor. Like using feats to gain more spell slots, as in my Improved Greater Matrix feat I posted above. A Sorc with a +4 modifier would get four spell levels with that, which could be a fourth level spell, two second, whatever. Take that a couple of times and it's awesome. But it's still not *too* awesome. Remember, each time you take that feat that's a metamagic feat you're not taking, and every metamagic feat you take doubles your spells known.

Also, allowing the sorc to swap out spells at will is a great idea for making spell research more worth their while. BUT, you can't go too far with that, or you've just remade the wizard, who swaps his spells every day. Which is what lead me to the outline above wherein a sorc can swap out his spells at will, but at a serious time commitement. If you drop a ninth level spell, it will take 81 days to replace it! But first level spells can be replaced in only a couple of days. (I made a minimum of two days to swap, so that you're at least sacrificing *something* even at first level.)

I also added a sort of limited unique scroll ability. Every spell matrix is prepowered. A sorc can discharge his matrix whenever without expending a spell per day, the matrix casts as if it were powered as one of the spells per day (or as if it were a scroll that was read), and then dissapeard. This compensates for the mage's ability to write scrolls feat free (their bonus feat). And it give a pretty substantial power boost to the sorc who's in a pinch. He can blow all his casting ability for days and even months if he needs to. Of course, the next day those matrixes expended are not there, and so that's fewer spells known (or possibly NO spells known).

But, a simple XP cost? There's no way to really account for that, even if you did manage to make up a fair amount of XP cost per spell. You could make it a cumulative XP cost, I suppose... IE the XP doesn't evaporate, it stays right there on the character sheet, boosting the characters ECL, so that you could have a fifth level sorc with a lot of spells who's now ECL +3 because he's spent that much XP on spell gaining... So he's now effectively 8th level. THAT would be a way XP cost could mean something. But in the long run that would really bite a caster where it hurts, access to higher level spells. I mean, he could have instead just researched one of those higher level spells that lets him cast a number of lower level spells. Same effect but much more cost efficient.

What I'm saying is that there has to be some cost, some concrete permanent payment for more spells. Either that or drop the sorc class altogether, and allow wizards to spontaniously cast spells.

 

[Merlion]

Because the limiting factor of the sorc is his fewer spells. That's the main disadvantage of playing him. Everything else is pure advantage (well, actually fewer skill points too. But there aren't a lot of wizardly skills anyhow).

Yes. Its also a disadvantage that I feel has been overdone to the point where I cant see why anyone would want to play a standard sorcerer, mechanically.

But, what I am proposing doesnt remove it. It greatly reduces it, but it doesnt remove it. And so far the only balance issue anyone has presented with that is that it makes the Sorcerer to much like the wizard. But, I dont see that as a problem since they are just slightly different versions of the same thing already.

As written, they don't give up anything more than other classes for researching spells

They dont exactly give up more, but it is harder and less convient. As written, a Sorcerer must wait to have a new spell known slot before he can create a new spell. Any other class can create them whenever they want, how ever many they want, and have constant full use of them.

What I'm saying is that there has to be some cost, some concrete permanent payment for more spells. Either that or drop the sorc class altogether, and allow wizards to spontaniously cast spells.

Isnt that what the sorcerer is already? They have exactly the same spell list. No different class features, except Wizards get extra metamagic and item creation feats. The only difference between them, in the PH, is how they cast.

Simply removing the spells known restriction entirely would make them completely redundant. But having to spend weeks of time and hundreds or thousands of XP to gain more spells isnt removing the restriction.

 

[ARandomGod]

Yes. Its also a disadvantage that I feel has been overdone to the point where I cant see why anyone would want to play a standard sorcerer, mechanically.

Oh, I agree. It's a horrible class as written. It's pretty much for people who are (sorry sorc lovers) too stupid to really roleplay, or for people who are making the campaign in the first place. It's a really nice NPC class for a GM. No need to worry about what to memorize, when, or why... you already know what you plan on going up against, so make the sorc whatever you want him to be. The GM doesn't have issues with inflexibility, that sorc is only there for one encounter (usually, or at least for limited encounters). AND no pesky spell book to have to worry about writing up as potential loot.

It's not underpowered at all... but is lacks so much in flavor and flexibility that it's practically the antithesis of a mage the way mages are supposed to be.

But still, that is THE disadvantage.

But, what I am proposing doesnt remove it. It greatly reduces it, but it doesnt remove it. And so far the only balance issue anyone has presented with that is that it makes the Sorcerer to much like the wizard. But, I dont see that as a problem since they are just slightly different versions of the same thing already.

Yes, it doesn't "remove" it. But I would say that it reduces it significantly. And the power, the flexibility that the sorc DOES have (and the sorc is extrememly powerful and flexible in his way) isn't correspondingly reduced. Sure, the current sorc has so few spells known as to be just pitiful. But the combinations available that he can cast grow exponentially, as he doesn't have to memorize. That spontanious casting is very, very good.

And, unless I'm misinterpreting your statement of how many more spells known you'd be giving the sorc, I'd say that's very unbalanced... I'd say that it reduces the penalty to the point where it does not adequately compensate for the advantage they're given in exchange for this penalty. If you reduce the penalty, you have to reduce what they were given in exchange. Even adding one more would be increasing the total spells known by an incredible factor. And I can see this easily (so can you) by thinking of how much more appealing that sorc would be.

They dont exactly give up more, but it is harder and less convient. As written, a Sorcerer must wait to have a new spell known slot before he can create a new spell. Any other class can create them whenever they want, how ever many they want, and have constant full use of them.

True. And as written that's the point of the sorc, that's what he pays for his incredible flexibility of spontanious casting.

A sorc can still create them whenever he wants, however many he wants, and can have full use of as many as he can know.

Once again, I'm not saying that the sorc is good as written. I think that the class is a horrorshow of poor writing and bad concept casting. It's like someone got a good idea and didn't bother to follow through with it, or perhaps like someone wrote a good idea and the GM shredded it predjudically without really thinking about it (if you haven't had something like that happen to you before you're either lucky or you don't come up with many ideas). But I AM saying that this is supposed to be the weakness of the sorc, not many spells... and correspondingly it's supposed to be the strength of the mage, the ability to do just about anything with some prep time.

Isnt that what the sorcerer is already? They have exactly the same spell list. No different class features, except Wizards get extra metamagic and item creation feats. The only difference between them, in the PH, is how they cast.

I'm not sure what you mean by this... although I'll point out again here my opinion that any wizard who takes metamagic feats is either lazy, stupid, or is a player who's GM is. It's just a waste of a feat. The mage should research that spell version that he's using "metamagic" for. You want a heightened fireball? Why waste the feat... research it! Now, a sorc who takes a metamagic feat is doubling his spells known. That's a different story altogether.

Simply removing the spells known restriction entirely would make them completely redundant. But having to spend weeks of time and hundreds or thousands of XP to gain more spells isnt removing the restriction.

Oh, yes, they're the same except for that particular thing... fewer spells known and spontanious casting.

Now, spending XP... the only objection I have to that is, once again, it's unmeasurability. A fifth level sorc who's spent XP to gain 50 spells of levels one through three is still only fifth level, and still only needs enough XP to level up as a fifth level character. But that sorc is much much more powerful. Sure, depending on how much XP you made that cost he could potentially be more. But I say you're adding a level of complication that's not really needed (how much XP per spell level would you say? Impossible to really accurately judge). Now, if you made that permanent XP, causing the sorc to gain levels, well that is a balance that's easier to judge.

Could you do it the way you meantioned? Sure. Could you prevent it from being abused? Easily. It IS your campaign. Does it make a good rule in general? I say no.

Now, that aside, look at the things I meantioned I'm already doing with the sorc. Obviously I agree with you. I've provided a way for the sorc to swap out spells basically at will, and a way for a sorc to gain extra spells known. And there are several people who've argued that even that gaining of spells known is too powerful. But then there are people who'll argue for the status quo in everything.

I agree, there should be some good way to gain more spells known, and there needs to be a better mechanic for swapping spells, for that matter. What's there is completely fluff, no reason behind the mechanic... Once again, I do think that the sorc class as written is aweful. Every time a GM uses one I point out the hypocracy.(Which it is because none of them would play one as a PC)

 

[Merlion]

It's not underpowered at all... but is lacks so much in flavor and flexibility that it's practically the antithesis of a mage the way mages are supposed to be.

All of what you described constitutes underpowered in my book.

Yes, it doesn't "remove" it. But I would say that it reduces it significantly. And the power, the flexibility that the sorc DOES have (and the sorc is extrememly powerful and flexible in his way) isn't correspondingly reduced. Sure, the current sorc has so few spells known as to be just pitiful. But the combinations available that he can cast grow exponentially, as he doesn't have to memorize. That spontanious casting is very, very good.

Its not that good. And as it is, the advantage of spontaneous casting is more than negated by the spells known thing. Being able to cast any spell you know on the fly isnt that great if you only know a single spell of a given level.


It reduces it somewhat. But because it costs both XP and time, and requires the player to write a new spell that I aprove, its not likely to get overused, because if you spend all your time researching, and are paying XP for it to, your never going to advance.

And, unless I'm misinterpreting your statement of how many more spells known you'd be giving the sorc, I'd say that's very unbalanced... I'd say that it reduces the penalty to the point where it does not adequately compensate for the advantage they're given in exchange for this penalty. If you reduce the penalty, you have to reduce what they were given in exchange. Even adding one more would be increasing the total spells known by an incredible factor. And I can see this easily (so can you) by thinking of how much more appealing that sorc would be

Well i've already done that, as I'm using Monte Cook's variant sorcerer.

But, since what they were "given in exchange" didnt actually make up for what was taken from them, giving some of it back isnt unbalancing.

True. And as written that's the point of the sorc, that's what he pays for his incredible flexibility of spontanious casting.

Problem is, it takes away the incredible flexibility of spontaneous casting, and most of the rest of the classes flexibility too.

A sorc can still create them whenever he wants, however many he wants, and can have full use of as many as he can know.

No...he cant. The rules are ambigious, but even at best, a sorcerer must wait to have a new "spell known slot" and fill it with a researched spell before he can use it.

I'm not sure what you mean by this... although I'll point out again here my opinion that any wizard who takes metamagic feats is either lazy, stupid, or is a player who's GM is. It's just a waste of a feat. The mage should research that spell version that he's using "metamagic" for. You want a heightened fireball? Why waste the feat... research it! Now, a sorc who takes a metamagic feat is doubling his spells known. That's a different story altogether.

I mean that the big thing people say about this is that it makes the sorcerer to much like the wizard, but to me they are already just slightly different versions of the same thing. The sorcerer is a variant wizard (or vice versa).

Metamagic is a whole other issue. I am using Spontaneous Metamagic from Unearthed Arcana.

Now, spending XP... the only objection I have to that is, once again, it's unmeasurability. A fifth level sorc who's spent XP to gain 50 spells of levels one through three is still only fifth level, and still only needs enough XP to level up as a fifth level character

You lost me entirely on this. I wouldnt allow XP to be spent to the point of losing a level, so once you reach a certain point you have to go and get more XP...but if you just keep spending it, you never advance.

Does it make a good rule in general? I say no

You may be right about that, but I dont think it would be a problem for me.

I agree, there should be some good way to gain more spells known, and there needs to be a better mechanic for swapping spells, for that matter. What's there is completely fluff, no reason behind the mechanic

The primary purpose to this isnt to solve the needing more spells know problem, its the research issue.

 

[ARandomGod]

You lost me entirely on this. I wouldnt allow XP to be spent to the point of losing a level, so once you reach a certain point you have to go and get more XP...but if you just keep spending it, you never advance.

Simple. I'm saying that, after you've spent XP, you're more powerful, but that higher power level is not accounted for on the sheet, nor is it accounted for in determining XP earned in the future.

Let's say that you're 5th level. You can cast spells up to level three spells.

Now you spend 4000 XP earning several new spells. You're sill fifth level (it would have taken 5K to go to sixth). Then later you spen another 4000 XP learning even MORE new spells. Then you do it again even later, and spend yet another 4000 XP and time to learn new spells. You're now substantially more powerful than you were when you were fifth level before... Yes, you've spent XP to get that power, you've spent time to get that power, but you can't SEE that, that isn't factored in when it comes to factoring experience.

How much more powerful are you? Well, if the GM has done the math right the character should be 12000 XP more powerful than a fifth level character. Which would make that character effectively seventh level. But, when you attack the next undead hoard, you're gaining XP as if you were fifth level. Why? Because that's all that shows. In spite of the fact that you should be similiar to a character of seventh level.

I'm saying that it would be balanced if you kept this XP spent written down as XP earned, and then the sorc is earning ECL along with his new spells, THAT would balance it out. You're never losing a level, you're instead gaining power that needs to be written down. This isn't creating a magic item here!

I know that this would suck.

Alternatively, however, if you're looking at how much such a thing should cost in XP... Figure out how much it would cost to make a slotless item that could cast a spell of the appropriate power level once per day, and charge 150% of that XP (and gold!) I think that would be an appropriate charge.

The primary purpose to this isnt to solve the needing more spells know problem, its the research issue.

True...
But you're "solving" it by giving them more spells known. Which moves the problem from how to solve it to how balanced is the solution of giving more spells known, which *makes* the spells known probem.

You could easily just allow them to swap out spells at will, which would add no more spells known (thereby not dealing with the more spells known issue) while completely solving this research issue. If, indeed, all you're attempting to "fix" here is the spell research issue.

Of course, you can't allow them to do it at will and rapidly, because then they would be wizards. You need them to have to invest heavily in time to switch out spells.

 

[ARandomGod]

It just really seems to me that you're saying that you don't like the drawback of the sorc, and you want one without the drawback. Fine. Remove the wizard class altogether, and allow the sorc to have as many spells as he wants, with the ability to switch them out daily, but only the number "known" per day memorized. There you have a sorc without the sorc drawback.

 

[Merlion]

It just really seems to me that you're saying that you don't like the drawback of the sorc, and you want one without the drawback.

I've already done that by using Monte Cook's variant sorcerer. If I wanted more beyond that, I'd just alter their spells known progression further

I think that the drawback was overdone. But that isnt the point of this thread. The point is, I want them to be able to research spells like everyone else. I keep saying that again and again and again but people keep insisting I'm just giving the sorcerer more spells.

I've already done that by using Monte Cook's variant sorcerer. If I wanted more beyond that, I'd just alter their spells known progression further

Of course, you can't allow them to do it at will and rapidly, because then they would be wizards

They already are wizards. Wizards and sorcerers represent the same basic archtype, and fill the same basic role in a party. The difference is really mainly in flavour...wether you want to play a book-mage or a born-mage. And to reinforce that flavour, they have a different method of casting. I just think its sad theres no way to do a bit of both.


As to the actual issue tho...I did realize another way to deal with it, that is more what I am after than spell swapping, is to simply let them research at any time, and gain the spell as normal, and then they "skip" their next newly learned spell of that level that they would gain through level advancement.

 

[ARandomGod]

I've already done that by using Monte Cook's variant sorcerer. If I wanted more beyond that, I'd just alter their spells known progression further

I think that the drawback was overdone. But that isnt the point of this thread. The point is, I want them to be able to research spells like everyone else. I keep saying that again and again and again but people keep insisting I'm just giving the sorcerer more spells.

I've already done that by using Monte Cook's variant sorcerer. If I wanted more beyond that, I'd just alter their spells known progression further.

I think it was over done too.

They can research spells just like everyone else. There's nothing stopping them. I don't see why you think that there is... Yes, if you think that they can't research spells like everyone else because they only have a few spells known available, well, that's an issue with the spells known slot, not with the research area. Does the one affect the other? Sure. There's no reason to research four spells when you can only know three.

They already are wizards. Wizards and sorcerers represent the same basic archtype, and fill the same basic role in a party. The difference is really mainly in flavour...wether you want to play a book-mage or a born-mage. And to reinforce that flavour, they have a different method of casting. I just think its sad theres no way to do a bit of both.


As to the actual issue tho...I did realize another way to deal with it, that is more what I am after than spell swapping, is to simply let them research at any time, and gain the spell as normal, and then they "skip" their next newly learned spell of that level that they would gain through level advancement.

Now you're just being silly. Saying that they already are wizards in response to a statement comparing the two subtypes. Yes, they are two subtypes. Yes, they fill a similiar role in the party. As written they don't fill the same roll, the sorc has more raw power and more versitility within his set area, and the wizard has an unlimited variety of spells.

Anyhow... Yes, letting them learn it and skip their next spell learned would be decent, as long as they couldn't have more than one "owed" at a time... Or you could allow swapping once, which they could later gain back their original spell if you wanted to do it without even that much power gain.

Or you could have a feat to help with spells known.

Interesting that you liked the thought of being able to do a bit of both. Relook at those custom feats I wrote up. The "Improved Lesser Matrix" feat would allow a book mage to be a little better at book magery, or they would allow a born mage to pick up some book magery. The "Improved Greater Matrix" feat would allow a book mage to pick up some born mage abilities, or they'd allow a born mage to be a little better born mage (more spells known).

Man, I'm really gonna have to spend the time and post a write up of that one day for more people to comment on. I personally love those two feats, and the flavor that they give both mage types.

 

[Merlion]

They can research spells just like everyone else. There's nothing stopping them

Nothing is *stopping* them. But, beside the fact that there is a limit on how many spells they can ever create (which I can deal with), they cannot research, and gain the benefits of the research, at any time as every other casting class can.

With the rules as written they must either: Wait until a level where they either gain a new known spell of the new spells level, or a level where they can do a swap on that spell level or: Go ahead and do the research, but not actually have the new spell until one of the above conditions is met.

Now you're just being silly. Saying that they already are wizards in response to a statement comparing the two subtypes

They arent totally identical, but they are very, very closer. Closer by far than any other two PH classes (save perhaps Barbarian and Fighter or ranger, but thats a whole other issue).

They are two different versions of the same archtype. The only difference between them is the origin of their power and how the aqquire and cast spells.

Yes, they fill a similiar role in the party. As written they don't fill the same roll, the sorc has more raw power and more versitility within his set area, and the wizard has an unlimited variety of spells.

they both (supposedly) fill the role of offensive/utility caster as oposed to (supposedly) support caster like Clerics/Druids/Bards.

PH Sorcerers just dont fill up to the role very well. Or they can do one half or the other.


Your feats are good, but if I was going to use them, I'd simply dump the Sorcerer and move the wizard over to Arcana Unearthed style spellcasting.

Or, write a deccent feat to let Sorcerers learn more spells.

I was tempted to just dump the sorcerer and alter the wizard, but a lot of people like the flavour of the inborn part.

The Sorcerer was not well executed, and for some reason they didnt even bother to improve it in 3.5. It needed to be differentiated from the Wizard by something other than casting method. One possibility would have been actually going somewhere with the whole "magical blood" thing in one way or another.

 

[ARandomGod]

Or, write a deccent feat to let Sorcerers learn more spells.

Well, what feat would you suggest?

I think that there's already a feat to learn an additional spell (although that might be epic). If not, a simple feat that says "Choose a spell level that you can cast, you know one additional spell of that level."

It's not nearly as good as my Improved Matrix feat... well, unless you're looking at seventh, eight, and ninth level spells... And even then it might not be as good... Assuming you've got a +4 modifier at the start then by level 16 you've got a +6 modifier... and if you get an item of +6 to the ability, that's a +9 mod.

With that you can either lay an additional ninth level matrix,
(Well, not until you coould cast it...)
or nine first level,
or four second level and a first,
or a fourth, a third, a second...
Or any combination of spells up to +9.

Add some traditional metamagic feats and that's a LOT of additional spells known for the sorc.

So if that feat's not "decent", what would you say IS?