D&D 5E Sorcerer vs Warlock

[Xeviat]

Hi everyone. I'm going to take a small step away from mechanics to discuss something that's been on my mind. Outside of different class mechanics, should the Sorcerer and Warlock classes be separate? I like them both. They're some of my favorite classes. But, are they really two sides of the same coin?

Both get their power from someone else. Warlocks get their power from their patron, sorcerers get theirs from their bloodline. But what about when those overlap? What is the difference between a Great Old One's Warlock or the sorcerers scion of some bad aberration mixups?

Merging the two class concepts could open up more origins and stories for the character's power. Were they born with it, or was it Maybelline (you know, the Arch Fey of beauty)?

The only way I see the need to keep them firmly separate is if the story and theme of the Warlock serving their patron was more apparent. The Warlock is sort of the forbidden Cleric, so if that was more important then I see the class being it's own thing.

What are your thoughts?


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[jaelis]

I wouldn't mind if they were merged somehow. Of the two I like the warlock mechanics and story better. Maybe ditch sorcerer, turn metamagic into invocations, and adapt dragons and chaos as possible patrons.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Hi everyone. I'm going to take a small step away from mechanics to discuss something that's been on my mind. Outside of different class mechanics, should the Sorcerer and Warlock classes be separate? are they really two sides of the same coin?

What are your thoughts?

I know you don't want to get into mechanics, but, mechanically, the Warlock is distinct/different/effective and the Sorcerer, thanks to getting the same slots as the neo-Vancian classes and absolutely everyone casting spontaneously, not so much.

Conceptually, yes, a Warlock is just a sort of voluntary, 1st-generation Sorcerer, or a Sorcerer is just an accident-of-birth Warlock.

Also, the actual, natural-language meanings of the names aren't that different. A Sorcerer being someone who claims supernatural power derived from dealing with spirits, the Warlock a 'male witch' (though that's getting dated & politically incorrect) and a 'witch' (same context) a woman who claims supernatural powers, derived from dealing with spirits/demons/'the devil.' In particular, the Sword & Sorcery "Sorcerer" often had a lot more in common with the concept of a D&D Warlock (or even D&D EHP) than a D&D sorcerer...

 

[cooperjer]

Awhile ago I did a lot of reading and re-reading of the text in the PHB on the warlock to get a better understanding of the class. This is the first time I've seen a warlock for a RPG, outside of the WoW warlock. The common theme of the warlock that I see through the descriptive text and spell list is that the class is a magical thief. The class descriptive text gives me the impression that the characters would make a deal with a greater power to gain some magical power. The character would then use this magical power to find more magical power or secrets. They would then use the new magical power or magical secrets to find more magical power and secrets or to break the contract with their old "greater power" and find a new greater power to get more magical power and/or secrets. What I noticed regarding the spell selection is that the have a lot of deception related spells and escape spells. The spell list should allow a warlock to sneak into a guarded library / dungeon, steal a magical item or secret, and then escape quickly. The above is what I saw as common and a strong thread through the class. A character using the class could easily take a different direction.

I haven't done nearly as much study or reading on the sorcerer class. I have one player that plays a wild mage and I placed a storm sorc in AL. The common thread of this class is that they have a unique touch with the weave of magic around them. In some cases this is from blood, fey influence, or elemental influence, etc. The class seems to have a common theme of having fun with magic, because it's a tool you can use and manipulate unlike any other. I don't particularly like the sorc spell list. I don't like the complication of the mechanics of sorc points. But both of those features provide a direction and insight into how the class is different from other classes.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I think the playtest idea that a warlock is someone who makes a deal with something and a sorcerer is someone who is turning into something was supposed to deal with this conceptual issue (as far as devils are concerned there is plenty of time for a warlock to turn into a devil after he/she is dead, so why bother while the warlock is alive?). They have walked back from that (more on the sorcerer's side), but they haven't completely disavowed it, so if it helps to think the sorcerer is an embryonic dragon/phoenix/elemental/embodiment of chaos, I say go for it.

 

[Caliban]

You could turn the various sorcerer metamagic abilities into warlock invocations, each usable at will once you learn the invocation. Warlocks only have 2-3 spell slots for most of their career, and get their spells back on a short rest, so no need for sorcery points.

Alternatively, you could make it a "Pact of the Sorcerer" - and the metamatic abilities are granted by the pact, instead of being for all warlocks.

This assumes you plan on ditching the sorcerer altogether.

 

[Alexemplar]

As far as I'm concerned, pretty much all primary spellcasting classes are just variations of one another. Some cast spells via mystical knowledge, some are granted powers by powerful entities, and some have it in their very blood. Beyond that, the spells you cast are really determined more by subclass than your actual class. The creepy Sorcerer/Warlocks/Wizards/Clerics all cast shadowy/death spells, the elemental ones cast fire/air/wind/earth spells, the celestial ones cast radiant/healing spells, the tricky ones cast illusion/charm spells, the mystical ones cast divination spells, etc. The overwhelming majority of their spell lists overlap conceptually. Without the Channel Divinity, Metamagic, and Spellbook abilities, Wildshape they're all pretty much interchangeable.

They're all about as different conceptually as the axe wielding raging savage warrior is different from the sword and board knight is different from the spear wielding legionnaire.

If anything, I'm more willing to merge the Warlock and the Cleric/Druid/Shaman. They all get light-to medium armor, all have a bit more survivability in melee, and they all get their magic by dealing with mighty spirits of one sort or another. Compare this to Sorcerer/Wizards/Psions who tend to be more representative of your armor-less and self-sufficient spellcaster.

But regarding your original question and to use your example of a Great Old One Pact Warlock and Old One Origin Sorcerer...

The Warlock was just a mortal who went out and found an artifact of or made contact with the Great Old One and through that, figured out how to cast spells. A Sorcerer carries the power of a Great Old One within themselves because they're either descended from it or contain an actual fragment of their power within themselves. It's a student/disciple of Cthulu vs a child/avatar of Chtulu. The Warlock gets boons from the entity but can't really change the nature of those boons while the Sorcerer's power is their to command and refine as they see fit- they can increase the power, extend the range, alter the manifestation, etc.

 

[CTurbo]

I think the Sorcerers and Wizards should be the only true full casters in the game. I think the Cleric/Druid/Bard should be 3/4 casters and the Warlock should be a 1/2 caster like the Paladin/EK/Ranger.

 

[foeblade1]

i have merged them. I dumped blood lines everyone is a wizard. As the wizard levels he gains benefits of both wizard and sorcerer class. They nerfed casters in general and wizards specifically to far, so i have changed a few of the mechanics as well. all spells cast at max damage (save for half) plus 1 point per caster level that is not reduced by save. I've returned to the one save rule. Without it the enchanters are totally hosed. I was thinking of doing away with concentration but decided to allow casters to maintain 1 spell per point of proficiency bonus. Also I have added proficiency bonus to each level of spells the caster can cast giving them more spells to cast without a rest. I am also tweaking the individual spells where think they have been made worthless. I also created a way for wizards to create spells at modest cost during down time that utilizes arcana. Wizards are all about spells if the spells don't do anything why bother.

 

[Leatherhead]

They eat into eachother's design spaces to begin with.

And considering mechanics VS fluff: Why is it that the person who makes a deal with the devil, has better on-tap magical powers than the person who is literally made out of magic?