D&D 5E Sorcerer vs Warlock

[Chaosmancer]

I can see where the two stories or themes can overlap, but they do not necessarily overlap.

And I think the core element of the difference in the story is worth preserving.

One makes a deal, willingly or unwillingly, knowingly or unwittingly, and that deal, that moment of weakness if you will, shapes the rest of their life.

The other is perhaps born with power, a blessing or a curse, or altered by something greater than themselves, something like gravity or radiation, a force that has no intent or will.

A warlock can be blamed (or at least someone can be blamed) because a choice was made and a deal was struck. A Sorcerer cannot be blamed, there was no moment where they decided to be born the way they were, or where they decided to accept magic into their lives. It just happened.


That distinction is important, I wish mechanically the sorcerer stood better on its own legs, but I've never thought that the Warlock and the Sorcerer serve the same narrative function, even if you can overlap by the Sorcerers power coming from a deal made long ago which altered the bloodline, or something similar.

 

[foeblade1]

Awhile ago I did a lot of reading and re-reading of the text in the PHB on the warlock to get a better understanding of the class. This is the first time I've seen a warlock for a RPG, outside of the WoW warlock. The common theme of the warlock that I see through the descriptive text and spell list is that the class is a magical thief. The class descriptive text gives me the impression that the characters would make a deal with a greater power to gain some magical power. The character would then use this magical power to find more magical power or secrets. They would then use the new magical power or magical secrets to find more magical power and secrets or to break the contract with their old "greater power" and find a new greater power to get more magical power and/or secrets. What I noticed regarding the spell selection is that the have a lot of deception related spells and escape spells. The spell list should allow a warlock to sneak into a guarded library / dungeon, steal a magical item or secret, and then escape quickly. The above is what I saw as common and a strong thread through the class. A character using the class could easily take a different direction.

I haven't done nearly as much study or reading on the sorcerer class. I have one player that plays a wild mage and I placed a storm sorc in AL. The common thread of this class is that they have a unique touch with the weave of magic around them. In some cases this is from blood, fey influence, or elemental influence, etc. The class seems to have a common theme of having fun with magic, because it's a tool you can use and manipulate unlike any other. I don't particularly like the sorc spell list. I don't like the complication of the mechanics of sorc points. But both of those features provide a direction and insight into how the class is different from other classes.

what i find odd is the warlock has more magical power then the entities that give him the power. The really big entities don't need warlocks they have clerics so that leaves the smaller powers like demon princes that aren't gods or the fey but none of them have more power then the the warlock. They really took a lot of magic out of the game to make it easier to play

 

[Hawk Diesel]

From my perspective, sorcerers don't have a choice in gaining their powers. They are born with them, the same as some people are born with darker skin or differently shaped eyes. But the warlock seeks out their power. They make a conscious choice to bargain for their power. To me, that is a big significant difference, even not including the mechanics.

No one chooses to be a sorcerer (though they may learn to practice and cultivate their power, gaining greater control and strength). Every warlock chooses to be a warlock.

So while their may be sorcerers that gain their power from a dark bloodline, similar to how a warlock may gain their power from a devil or great old one, the sorcerer cannot choose their heritage or ask not to be born with this alien blood flowing through them. The warlock seeks out this power and embraces it.

 

[cbwjm]

I recall looking at the wizard, sorcerer, and warlock and thinking that they could have essentially been a single class (magic-user) that had different options available at level 1 to define their source of power, their spellcasting stat, and some other options like access to a spellbook or inborn knowledge of spells. I don't think I bothered doing any work on it other than thinking about how it could be done.

 

[Yaarel]

My preference?

Create a class called ‘Witch’. Use Warlock mechanics for it.



Make the archetypes for the Witch class, the Warlock ‘pacts’ and Sorcerous ‘bloodlines’.

I also want to see a psionic archetype for a ‘psychic’ Witch that covers enchant and phantasm themes, as a kind of bloodline − the mind-influencing Fey pact might be better as a psionic bloodline.

The Farrealm pact covers monstrous insanity themes.



The 5e Warlock mechanics has many moving parts: ‘pact/bloodline’, plus ‘invocation’ and ‘boon’.

Make spell slots and ‘invocations’ part of the Witch base class.

Make ‘pact/bloodline’ the choices for the archetype of the class.

Only add a boon to a specific archetype when it makes sense as part of the comprehensive theme of the archetype. A ‘boon’ might include familiar, dragon wings, fey sword, undead servant, book of forbidden knowledge, or so on. If it makes sense.



Heh, give back the metamagic so everyone can have it, Wizard or Witch, whoever wants to augment a special thematic spell.

 

[Aldarc]

Of course, now that I have seen it in book and practice, I have increasingly find myself attracted for something akin to Starfinder's Mystic, which essentially combines the cleric, the druid, the warlock, the sorcerer, and the psionist into a catch-all blender and subclasses. It's all mysticism as far as Starfinder is concerned, and I think that it its pleasantly sublime in how well that works. It mostly leaves players to decide for themselves where their mysterious powers come from and its flavor. (The sci-fi equivalent of the wizard, the Technomancer, is a seperate class.)

 

[MechaTarrasque]

They eat into eachother's design spaces to begin with.

And considering mechanics VS fluff: Why is it that the person who makes a deal with the devil, has better on-tap magical powers than the person who is literally made out of magic?

The devil provides an instruction manual. The sorcerer is trying to force a square block into a round hole. That is obviously inefficient.

 

[green_destiny]

A Sorcerer, Warlock and a Wizard are on the same class.

* The Wizard is very studious, studies very hard and passes the test.

* The Sorcerer is born a genius and passes the test.

* The Warlock prior to taking the test, opens the professor's drawer and copies the answer keys (or just kisses the professor's [MENTION=40136]SS[/MENTION]) and passes the test.


Instead of dying, my PC formed a pact with Mephistopheles, a Fiend patron, in order to seek revenge on his killers. Thus he became a Warlock. Only to find out that Mephistopheles has been offering my PC's ancestors this moment-of-death bargain because they come from a powerful draconic sorcerer bloodline...

I love multi-classing these two classes, combining them gives you a huge burst damage potential.

 

[cooperjer]

what i find odd is the warlock has more magical power then the entities that give him the power. The really big entities don't need warlocks they have clerics so that leaves the smaller powers like demon princes that aren't gods or the fey but none of them have more power then the the warlock. They really took a lot of magic out of the game to make it easier to play

I noticed up thread that you mention in your game that you merged some of the casters and amplified the effectiveness of spells. Do you say the warlock has more power because of the changes you've done in your game? What do you perceive that gives you an indication that the warlock classes have more power than the creature granting them power?

 

[foeblade1]

its a general comment about what they did to a lot of creatures, dragons, demons ect. back in 3.5 they had a lot more spell and spell like abilities. They seem to have been cut back a lot in 5th edition. A warlock has a sponsor to get all his power from. I figure that its not going to be a deity otherwise the warlock would be a cleric so its going to be a power ful critter like a hag or pit fiend or weak demon prince that sort of thing. but by the time the warlock is mid level he has more magical abilities then the critter that is most likely sponsoring him. Most critters in 5th edition are really just meat shields lots of hit points a couple of attacks and thats it. Rather weak really.